General

all i know is a bishop can outdamage a hayato 1:1. Which makes no sense.

This is after Evan's recent nerf ? wow ... I think I know why. This didn't include Evan's %final damage loss. Like seriously, they lost like what, 40% final damage total ... that is a super huge loss. So their %damage from skill MIGHT be able to make up for it.

@star909 Yeah i understand, but i am saying it in general, where the boss moves and cast buffs.But sadly @natty2 just have too much pride in his class.

@noblequality: This chart doesnt take into consideration the factors you mentioned and make the situation rather ignorable in the sense that we're using it. The situation in this matter calls for a boss that can neither move attack back nor cast spells.

@natty2 You clearly have too much pride in your class that your not seeing the full potential of FP. Answer this what can a bishop do when the boss have magic attack cancellation buff on? In that situation your Bishop will be doing 1 dmg x 10 lines to the boss, whereas in the situation for FP, the boss would be taking damage from ignite and poison mist.

@natty2: again comparing one skill to another. This is honestly getting no where and honestly its not worth it if you're not going to see that an F/P is more than Paralyze. I'd honestly like to sit down and pull %'s and delays to a chart and show you but unfortunately I dont have the time right now, maybe I can get back to it but in comparison to one skill vs one skill then a lot of classes would fall a lot further below from where they are now.

To my last note your comparison is like saying a Hero should simply use Raging blow without enrage or Dark Knights to use dark impale and ignore sacrifice, that's the type of comparison you're making. And yes you're going to call me rediculous but its true.

@natty2: Any serious player who knows the game will tell you that dpm charts are inaccurate. The people arguing with you here are just saying bishops aren't as good as you say they are. Everyone already knows that dpm charts show very little since the environment they are tested in is not representative at all, and this was from the very first one with corsair, bm, nl, hero at the top.

The chart shows efficiency given everyone with unique potentials and inner ability, 1000 attack, fixed boss and pdr/ied, and other strange stats on a cvellum target (again, not reasonable since real cvellum moves). At least the ones by this guy does, as he released these stats somewhere. They do use optimal skills. All this chart is saying is that given the same equipment, fp is the strongest explorer mage provided the player is a bot who can never miss any spell casts and the target is stationary and just takes damage like a punching bag. And this makes sense. Even now f/p mage requires very little to cap and a lower range than most to do chaos vellum.

Obviously it doesn't show which class is the best at capping damage because then you would have to look at a hps chart. Overall the chart looks pretty accurate to me. Hurricane classes low as expected because they're meant to shine lategame. Low fund required classes like evan, aran, marksman, hero are high. Honestly the only sad ones are night lord, bishop, paladin, zero, luminous since they have low damage at every point of the game (estimating bishops to beat out the rest though at endgame). Shade and demon slayer are a little questionable, but nothing too strange. I actually expected buccs to be around where they are (#10), maybe slightly lower.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/commfents/3zd3h8/new_kms_dpm_chart/cyl60b2
said it was from Mori of insoya, so this is the same guy who made the current chart.

@ulieq: Hayatos don't exist in KMS.

@star909: Did you not get a word about more line, more damage, and better speed?
How can a 7-liner beat a 10-liner?
In addition to *higher damage per line*.
Even in the current GMS version F/P can't outdo Bishop o_o
After a nerf, I am double sure I know what I'm talking about.

Hayato's suck so much they are not even on the chart

@noblequality: If we take those facts into consideration (which I;m sure the DPS chart DID NOT FACTOR IN), then bishop double-wins, because of more utilities, such as Heaven's Door, more Status resistance, HMS which frankly lets bishop counter more bosses, and whatnot.

@natty2 Do take in consideration that some boss have magic cancellation, damage reflect, stun, seduce, etc. During that time your number of lines wouldn't matter, however FP's poison mist and burning effect from Ignite still takes in effect.

@natty2: The only thing you've been right about is that this chart is BS but you continue to complain thinking your theories are right because you provided %'s without factoring in delays other %'s and other factors that come into play during this situation only because you think your bishop is oh so superior to F/P when it isnt on a DPM chart. anything with a DoT skill shines on a DPM chart because it's able to use it's full extent of its DoT rather than have the initial damage and go with that. But noooooo F/P dont even have that long of a duration of a DoT so they cant beat the "oh so superior bishop".

You dont know what you're talking about and the fact that you're angry about people telling you your wrong when they're right about F/P has been higher than Bishop (as it's always been) but the only thing that you've provided to the table is a single single vs a single skill, you dismiss the fact that it has DoT simply because it was nerfed before and you refuse to admit because of the DoT a F/P beats a Bishop by a long shot. By the amount this chart listed? Probably not but It still beats them regardless.

I find it ridiculous how everyone follow as if it's official.

I don't understand how Kinesis is now number 2 and BM & Nl's are now almost 30! That's absurd.

@natty2: I tried to tell the person who translated it that the chart was wrong since he tried to convince me that 136% > 168%, but he got butthurt and made a angry reddit post about it.

let the evan bandwagon begin

@lecarde: Such charts and changes in ranks and such over time usually suggest balancing directions of jobs in comparison to each other. For example, Paladins have ranked low on these charts for a good amount of time now. Probably means the balance team sees their durability and ability to revive allies as good reason to not have to buff their single-target output. But other jobs who may have seen rises, like Buccs, may have features that the balance team may not have seen as sufficient to make up for their damage output.

But let's be honest, a lot of players simply look at the list and see it as "Best job to worst job." To them, if you can spam more damage as X job over Y job on a chart, X job is better. That's it to them. And when they make X job and it gets surpassed by Y job or any other job later on, the usual train of thought is "I have to ditch X job because Y or other job is now better." So they take it seriously because it means their job is better or worse than other jobs based on the numbers presented on a chart.

Fortunately, for the most part, I feel that Maple's diversity in job selection is pretty good with a few exceptions and that is due to most people just picking a job because they do enjoy it and/or they do see value in other aspects of their job that far surpasses just how much damage they can spam on a single target. ^^

oh yes shadower back to #1 thief class. Its a good day!

DPS and DPM charts are all but meaningless, I don't understand why people care so much about them. And I agree with @natty2, this one is especially screwed up. For anyone who disagrees with me, compare this one to the past couple DPS charts that we have had. NL has a lower place on this DPS chart than it has had on any chart since at least December, if not earlier, despite getting nothing but buffs since Reboot. Combine that with the fact that this patch gave NL's a permanent 60mil damage cap, 66mil with epic adventurer, there is no reason for NL to have fallen in the DPS chart when other classes are still being nerfed for balancing reasons.

No one ever releases the information that they used to put these charts together, none of us have any idea where these numbers came from, but people who know their class can confirm that the numbers don't look right. I can't believe that there are still so many people that blindly believe numbers that appear to just have been thrown onto an Excel worksheet based on personal opinion. Tell me, what does (Theory) mean? Why do some classes show up 2, 3, 4 times on the chart when most of them are only shown once? The chart is just not applicable to the game

Hayato #40, grats.

@zerorival: I main a Bucc. Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but if they are true, then I'm a little happier with myself.

The biggest problem with the charts is that the Insoya users must have a hidden understanding on how these numbers are derived and there is absolutely no explanation provided with the charts they make.

Based on the magnitude of the number, they have calculated the estimated damage done on a single target over a minute (historically GMS chart providers use %/s or %/m, which is not the same).

That's all fine if all the parameters are fair and abided among all the classes. But there is no way to know that.

I've broken down the Mercedes numbers (because that's the only class I can confidently speak about).

The charts say 3.4m damage over a minute. Mercedes in this patch do approximately 24.5k%/s to a 0%def Boss or 21k%/s to a Slime. Taking it conservatively, let's say they do approximately 18k%/s.

Roughly speaking, Damage = Skill% x Range.

3.4m damage = 56.6k damage per second / 18k% per second = Approximate range this has been tested at: 3.1k range.

What? Are you serious? I highly doubt a level 200 with clean pensalirs or even just a clean weapon will have that range.

Ergo: Just forget it. Until someone can explain how these numbers are derived, it's just like trying to understand a foreign language with no education.

Carry on.

@natty2: You shouldn't try to defend bishop so much while ignoring the true potential of F/P. I used to main a lot of mages before maining this Jett and I can say bishop are still behind f/p by a fair amount in DPM. You have to understand DPM doesn't consider a damage cap and it compares classes with the same amount of funding.

As @wall said, DPM Chart should only consider yourself alone. You can't profit of some buffs/party members.

You compared bishop Angel Ray to f/p Paralyse. I doubt this f/p in this chart will spam paralyse because it's not the strongest F/P skill. It's probably a mix up of Myst Explosion, Flame Haze, Meteor Shower, Megiddo Flame and Paralyse. This is the true F/P potential that the damage cap is currently hiding those mages.

Don't forget Bishop doesn't have Element Amplification (50% magic attack). Also, F/P and I/L got more % final damage from Element Amplification than your hyper skill. Like I said paralyse might seems weak, but what about the other F/P skills? This is why you have to get your mentality out of the HPS list when we talk about DPM. HPS won't matter when Nexon will remove damage cap.

In summary, I don't see why bishop would be stronger than F/P when you got many buffs to help a party out.

Concerning the chart, I am confuse about Demon Slayer position. I believe it should be better. Rest of the chart seems to be about right. Xenon and Demon Avenger are quite hard to position in the chart to be honest because their funding doesn't work like the rest. With equivalent funding, those classes could be like anywhere in the chart.

cannoneer believe it or not is the strongest pirate. so yeah it makes sense shade is rank34 and bucc is rank10

my bucc is looking so much more appealing now

@natty2: * Bishops Get higher Cap raise, together with AR, even without Infinity, and Epic Adventure.
* Bishops have more Crit Rate, more crit damage, higher Boss damage (mainly in forms of party buffs), and overall better stats.
These two things dont matter and arent taken into consideration on any DPS and DPM chart, and much like you I also believe this chart is BS, but what you're saying doesnt follow into alignment with how these charts work. The only thing that you've listed here that's correct is that they have higher boss damage.

@wall @natty2
dang when i said elaborate i just wanted reasoning i wasnt doubting it lmao didnt mean to start all this.
Although im on the fence with the DPS charts, I believe that there are some information to take from it but there are some also false factors,
Because they do give us a rough estimate about whose strong

But they also dont consider, who gets attack speed for free in their kit, Who has things like binds, Dawn warriors true sight, Battle mages weakening aura, Paladins threatan.
Not to mention shades really low which makes me assume they dont count soul splitter, + shade is super mobile and really good at bossing in general (backstep is probably one of my fave skills in the game)
So i didnt mean to start an argument i just wanted to hear what you had to say (which you did give me so thanks fam)
My opinion is: DPS charts are a general guidelines when it comes to theory crafting but they do not hold much water in practice

@vivabasura: I am just shocked to see how many people follow this dumb picture just because it has some numbers on it.
None of it is accurate, and yet people still follow it like dumb sheep.

I am giving out numbers, and I am being treated like the dumb one.
This is just baffling.

@natty2: being able to reach 0 with mpe green was bishops pride because the other explorer mages could only get to 1 iirc, y do u let them down, but yeah u all gonna stick on 2 if potion gets patched in GMS
idk why are u so surprised about F/P being stronger than bishop in terms of DPS im starting to think youre trolling

@wall: thing is after all the rebalances everyones getting closer to each other in DPS charts so its not that bad that bishop is at the bottom it doesnt mean theyre weak, back in the day the charts were like 1st place 400% last place 50%, now the difference is barely 100% so u can all stop freaking out because it doesnt matter that much

@wall: I was repeatedly asked about Bishop this time, but the chart doesn't do justice with other classes as well.
It's also over-hyping certain classes that don't deserve that spotlight.

@star909: Seems like you're the one not taking it into consideration.

[*] Bishops do more lines per AR attack.
[*] Bishops attack faster (with AR)
[*] Bishops do more damage per line with AR.
These 3 facts alone should put Bishop above F/P mage.

But let's keep going, because you guys keep dragging me into this.

[*] F/Ps DoTs were nerfed. Both in terms of damage, AND in terms of duration.
[*] F/Ps now have to cast DoTs more often during the battle, meaning they spend more time on it.
[*] Bishops Get higher Cap raise, together with AR, even without Infinity, and Epic Adventure.
[*] Bishops have more Crit Rate, more crit damage, higher Boss damage (mainly in forms of party buffs), and overall better stats.

I can see NO WAY that F/Ps get higher stats in the charts.
You blindly decide to accept it because it has numbers on it.

@natty2: Did you take into consideration that F/P has several DoT skills while your class doesnt? Have you taken into consideration the length of these DoT skills while maintaining them? Did you consider the fact that some other classes can attack much faster than other classes (in case shade vs cannoneer/i/l) but had some utility nerfed (soul split in this case) making them deal less % than previously stated in the previous chart? You dont even take into consideration the damage cap on either DPS or a DPM chart, none of those matter on any chart other than the one that funkyflame did. Obviously you stated the DoT thing at the in your most recent post but you're considerably underestimating that and the fact that using myst eruption every 3s can net you another high % of damage. The fact of lines and Bishop simply doing AR and nothing else while F/P have a whole DoT effeect going for them for an entire minute if they manage it properly blows Bishop out of the water when in comparison to the two.

@vivabasura: Do YOU know?
in KMS the speed cap is (2), and not (0).

Also, Bishops are supirior in %Boss damage, PDR, and these stats too.
Check to see if I'm wrong.
The only difference is literaly DoTs which in no case, make Bishops second to last, and F/P on the top,

And add to that the fact that bishops CLEARLY HAVE MORE DAMN LINES PER ATTACK.
The chart is simply BS, as I stated in the beginning.

@natty2
You also didn't show how any other class is improperly placed. Most of them seem right to me anyway in regards to theoretical. Battle mage got huge buffs, just not in the last patch maybe. They skyrocketed by last chart someone released. Blaze wizards have gotten pure nerfs since they were released. I/L used to be at the top. They aren't a bad class and definitely underrated. They're bad at cap damage but they're good for unfunded players, which is what this is all about.

Honestly the only one that surprised me was buccs, but they got a good buff last patch too, and I'm probably just used to seeing them near the bottom. Shadowers also surprised me, but then I took into account how difficult it is actually to use meso explosion perfectly without losing any speed for assassinate (which also builds up coins slowly...) so shadowers shouldn't be at the top either, maybe rank 10-11 in practicality, but still surprising. I was also surprised that db was that low, but I guess they got no buffs last patch at all for the average player.

The only real disappointments I have are for cannoneer and demon slayer due to ds' significant buffs. I am not convinced by those, but I don't think the chart in general is wrong.

@wall
Yeah, the lame thing about these charts is they assume the boss is 100% binded forever, which takes away from kanna and shade's usefulness

@wall: i supposed everyone already knows that so i dont bother repeating it

@natty2: u cant find the reason because u only look at the attacks stats, the chart takes in account innate boss dmg, pdr and how easy it is to raise the range as well as weapon mastery
also, u said bishop attacks faster but do u actually know the ms of these attacks youre comparing? just because bishop can reach 0 speed by themselves doesnt assure u their attacks take less ms than someone in 2 speed for example, and if they attack so fast then why are they at the bottom of the HPS chart too..

I have no idea how f/p mage can be better than bishop. I've played only bishop. It's probably dot though, which adds like an average of 2 lines/sec probably. They are notorious for being able to kill bosses without much funding though.

@natty2: It's relevant in saying a couple things. There are a few tiers of classes. Evan is ahead of everyone else. A few of the top classes shouldn't be exactly that due to hard optimal play like battle mage, f/p archmage, shadower, kinesis, but it's safe to say that heroes might be stronger than night lord assuming immobile boss due to the high % discrepancy. You have to read it how it was meant to be read. It's not supposed to be a class ranking. You also have to take account human error when you execute the skills. No one is going to be successful in setting up all of the f/p skills 100% of the time. No one will do BaM telecast 100% of the time without any delays. Shadower and kinesis are more viable, but hitting meso explosion even every 5 seconds is harder than it sounds.

edit: correction before people get the wrong meaning. it's not meant to be definitive class ranking, saying rank 20 is better than 21, because the difference in game is too small to make an inpact on real bosses.

@moogra: This chart is relevant to no one besides fools who believe it. This chart is it's creator's opinion, not facts.

I have a feeling over the next few months KMS is going to see a lot of changes to class balance, but seeing as this is maple
and most funded players have class pride its safe to assume there's going to be a lot of threads debating over what class is better after every small balance.

@nitsua2789: Oops, meant attack speed as in comparing to hurricane type skills. Obviously you can get more attacks in with more attack speed, but that doesn't mean you will do more damage. Thanks for the correction.

@wall
Although that is true, that's just looking at it in the complete opposite way. This entire chart assumes no damage cap and everyone with terrible equipment. It's meant to show skill % over time. This chart is still more relevant to more players in the game since most players are not close to capping.

@vivabasura: @moogra: Fine, even if attack speed doesn't matter, then what does?
What parameter are they taking into account? Because Bishop is supirior in all of them.

AR is doing 2950% per attack.
295% per line, 10 lines per attack.

On the other hand, Paralyze does 1827% per attack.
261% per line, 7 lines (with the hyper skill).
Let's be fair, and add 20% damage from the hyper skill, that's still 2192.4%

So how exactly can F/P be better than Bishop?
In what aspect? what parameter? HOW?

@moogra: Attack speed does matter. If they have bad attack speed they aren't gonna place at the top of the list unless their damage % is stupid high (like F/p). This is calculated based on the most possible damage the class can output in ideal circumstances with a set damage range, and attack speed directly impacts how much damage output is possible for the majority of classes.

@natty2: This is a dpm chart, cap doesn't matter. Zeros were at the top before, and they have always been terrible when capping since they hit it so early with low hps. Attack speed doesn't matter. Plenty of classes have higher attack speed. The chart is made to show funding efficiency. It has no relevance when people hit max damage.

@natty2: bishop might attack faster and deal more lines than F/P but thats not what matters here, the thing is F/P will always deals more damage with less funding than bishop and thats what this chart is trying to say

@vivabasura: Okay, explain this:
Bishop has higher number of lines, they attack faster, have higher Cap, and do MORE damage per line than F/P mages.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, F/P mage suffered a number of nerfs to the face, over and over again.
Only buffs were to Megiddo Flame (number of lines, mainly), and The VERY SAME buff bishops got, to the Infinity buff.

And the person who made the list, as if they are unaware of that, decided to put F/P on top of the list.
I would LOVE to hear ANY KIND of explaination to that, given the fact that F/P is infirior to bishop IN EVERY SINGLE ASPECT. If you say "DoTs" I'll just remind you that DoTs were NERFED A LOT recently in number of ways, and that Bishops got higher cap EVEN TODAY.
HPS, DPS, DPM or w/e, I want to hear you tell me I'm wrong at this one.

@funkyflame: It's not about bishops, really.
But lots of things in the list don't make sense.

@natty2: I feel like if Bishops were #3 on this list you would've ignored the thread lmao

I can't speak for how Shadower DPS changes at low funding once the Meso Explosion changes happen, or how much stronger DA gets with the Nether Shield changes. But outside of Evan, Dark Knight, F/p and Marksman the top 10 seems a little... unexpected? I get that this is purely calculated with skill %'s in ideal conditions using a base range but I think that's a bit misleading to say that a Buccaneer is better than a Kaiser / Zero or that a Battle Mage is better than a Wild Hunter or Night Walker.

Also why would you include Evan as #1 and #2 with different attack patterns and then again as tied for #3 with yet another attack pattern. You could just make a side note of where various attack patterns would go in the list.

@natty2: stop comparing this chart with the HPS thread, theyre completely different
and even if bishop got nothing but buffs they were at the bottom of the DPS chart anyway, it was expected they wouldnt climb many places
shade was always in the bottom too
probably someone should explain u the differences between DPS and HPS but im too lazy to do so
and no bw doesnt outclass battle mage in DPS, bw was always at the bottom row in past charts while bam was in the upper half (not to mention in that HPS thread bam beated bw too)

Evan Master Race.

@abidinghero: With pleasure.
NOTHING in the table makes sense.

First of all, as a bishop myself, I cannot help but admit, I AM 100% BIASED. That doesn't get in the way of seeing realisticly where I am positioned among the rest of the people who cap, and I am aware that it's not high. And placing bishop as 2nd to last seems like PURE OPINION BASED, and that was my first clue.

Bishops got NOTHING BUT BUFFS, and among getting the cap increased to 108m *PER LINE*, I should also include increasing our main attack from 8 lines to 10 lines (that's basicly spammable 1.08B damage per attack).
Couple that with the fact that Bishops in KMS can hit speed cap,

Bottom line, you got yourself a contradiction.

Let's move on to LESS BORING stuff.
In no server, ever, in any situation, can a Shade be lower on the list than I/L mage, or Cannoneer.
The Numbers are completely off (espicialy if you take into account this golden thread:

http://www.basilmarket.com/Lets-make-an-HPS-DPS-list-once-and-for-all-Thread-b5E9Y-1
That clearly shows the contradictions).

In fact, after watching carefuly this link:

http://orangemushroom.net/2016/03/23/kms-ver-1-2-254-skill-balancing/

it made me question if the chart maker was even aware of Cap-changes in KMS at all (great examples are Battle Mage not getting ANY buff at all, and still getting spot #6, while it's clearly outclassed by blaze wizard (couple that with +10m cap increase to BW) and Dawn Warrior getting extra 2 lines getting as low as #16, you can see how much BS in one list).
Why are you even considering taking this seriously?

EDIT: DUDE, SHADE IS #34.
THIS THING IS SO FAKE.

after mages elemental nerfs and other changes shouldve expected the chart to look similar like the second one here https://itzdarkvoid.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/kms-v-1-2-240-boss-dpm-chart/
and classes with major adjusts did move, so i guess is not as inacurate as others are claiming
ofc this is the chart of the average player, capping people want the HPS chart instead