Video

that reminds me when people started soloing zakum and took 4hours

@ImFred:

Yup, you really can't play this game for hours on end as many of us used to. You just have to accept the fact Nexon screwed up big time to the point of no return, that way no one has high expectations, therefore, the feeling of being disappointed upon logging on is no longer there. I myself just log on a few times a week just to talk to friends. I don't bother with the new events or don't care to keep up since they really don't change the game, and the events gets boring/pointless after a week or two.

@ImFred: Oh my god ! now this is Nastalgia! I remember times like these back with STD's and Coolie zombies on my hermit. Lawd don't get me started.
Potential is the first thing I believe started this game breaking issue, but you are correct its been gone and the game is too far gone to even reminisce.

[quote=Biker123]
Lol. You guys got the idea of what makes bossing challenging all wrong. The most important aspect of bossing is skill/strategy and damage comes after. Ever since BB, this has shifted.

Do you remember how bosses like zakum, horntail, pink bean, or any other pre BB boss where all taken down?

Sure people back then had just enough damage combined as a expedition (pre-bb), but they mainly relied on strategy/skill (not pure damage). They didn't just kill bosses by simply attacking it. They all had an intricate plan/method worked out from start to finish. Not everyone needed damage back then go bossing. If you were unfunded or couldn't afford NX, you probably made a bishop and played as a support, or an HB mule, or whatever it was required for that specific boss. Nowadays that doesn't exist.

Nowadays there's no skill/strategy involved in bossing, all you need is pure damage to take down a boss which doesn't make the game fun for anyone (funded non funded). Or if it does require some strategy, you can only bring up to 6 players that are funded.

So the point is, adding a new boss with more zeros after its hp doesn't make the game challenging, it makes it more or less pointless. They should make a boss that's challenging with no emphasis on damage but the minds/brains of maplers to come up with a plan using their resources. However, some damage required is good.

A great analogy is basketball. Each team has a few players that makes all the points (does the damage), however a basketball team can't win if they don't have good defenders or rebounders (the people who usually don't make as much points and play as a support). In terms of maplestory bossing should be like a basketball team where more than just damage to get the win. Nowadays its either one person making all the points or 6 of them. Same idea goes for any other sports: baseball, football, volleyball, etc...

P.S. And if you haven't noticed, eventually they will most likely release a new OP class that will be able to solo her (dorothy), thus creating hype and causing everyone to make one. Thus the process repeats again, and the rich stay rich, and the poor are useless and not needed in anything. Wake up![/quote]

Good post!
I myself was in the first EMS Zakum runs (also was in the first Yellonde GMS zakum run as a Dragon Knight), the first EMS Horntail run and eventually in early empress runs.
We had to use tactics and calculations to make it work. For example at zakum, we used at least 3 Chief Bandits using meso explosion, priests spamming dispel and heal, Dragon Knights in each party for Hyperbody, etc. The first Zakum was taken down just barely, because out of the 30 people who had entered, 25 people dc'd or died. It took us hours.
Damage per person wasn't important, because we needed all of us together to make it work anyway. Plus there weren't any game braking items that would out damage others by 50x.

[quote=ajwright92]Which brings the element of challenge back to the game.[/quote]
The element of challenge has been lost long ago. This game is broken. Nexon would have to revamp the game to bring back a challenge. Nobody sees that happening anytime soon and more likely.. will never happen.
Look at this video I made, back when 1 level up took at least 10 hours at level 70 (scaling upwards immensely as you got higher level). It was even before 3rd job got released in EMS. http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-Nostalgia_Before_3rd_job-Thief-Video-27274.html
Now level 250 is a challenge, but what's the point of going past 200? You don't even get stronger, because max stat is 999 anyway.
(fyi, I quit this game long ago. Last year (ish) installed it for some nostalgia. Ended up disappointed and quit again.)

@razormana: I thank you for clearing that up.

@ajwright92
As an early poster said, Dorothy is only a challenge because she takes hours to get to, and even when you get to her you have basically no time to actually kill her.
If she had a set timer like other bosses it would not be a challenge at all, but due to the stupid timer that seed runs on it gives an illusion of challenge.

Another note about the seed timer, nexon "balanced" it because it was impossible to get to floor 40 before they did, even with the maximum number time slots and the maximum value rocks. But nevertheless seed is a waste of time, the only class that may benefit from it is kaiser. This is due to a 2h sword that a boss on a higher (lower number then Dorothy, as in higher up the tower) which has an added option that increases attacking speed by one stage.

@DLiu456: What are you talking about? Where did I say (current) maple ever required skill? I stated bosses were more challenging you could see that based on old videos. Good example when people had to take groups to Czak not because it was required but because it actually took some strategy or planning. Also leave your attitude at the door man it's a forum relax.

[quote=ajwright92]People are still talking about this? Let it go
My point was made a difficult/impossible boss has been released. People complain cuz they can't run through it.
Whats new?[/quote]
There's nothing new, not even the fact that people like you still "think" MapleStory is "challenging" and requires "skill." MapleStory [b]never[/b] needed any form of skill. Only the determination to mash buttons on a keyboard. If that's "skill" to you, then you must have no skill at all.

Dam so many INTP people be on them basil forums... Getting all defensive when people attack their perception of a GAME..

@Narwhol: Although gollux is a new take on bossing (i use new loosely) i cant stand its mechanics, 1h ko moves are the cheapest thing in any game, the middle platform makes it hard for melee classes (such as me) to hit at full strength and lastly and more importantly % based dmg is just plain stupid, not only does it make classes and skills (hyper body) obsolete but lowers the diversity in an actual boss run (ex a full run will take characters that do the best dps instead of characters to tank certain attacks or do certain tasks based on their class). They could do plenty more with bosses but choose to remain stale and linear. The fact stands bossing as a whole in ms has degraded since BB we have taken a step back. (gollux is a step in the right direction though, i duo hard gollux with a friend and we split profits since soloing him as a bucc is a pain unless you can utterly destroy him with bucc blast).

Whoever said give the boss unlimited timer, some bosses can heal. If you can't do more damage that the amount they heal, you would still never be able to kill it.

This game needs a big boss that takes actual roles to kill. Maybe even incorporates a little CWKPQ type class restrictions so that there actually has to be a varied party that enters as well. We need a boss that requires just enough damage to where you can't kill it in a few minutes while also requiring cooperation of party members like soooooo many other mmos.

Edit: Perhaps a boss that specifically targets the most dangerous party member or maybe a boss that changes its style of fighting based on who is fighting it.
Not necessarily a huge and powerful boss, just a cunning one.

[quote=Jellyquest]Thanks Alex Jones[/quote]

You're very welcome Anytime!

People are still talking about this? Let it go
My point was made a difficult/impossible boss has been released. People complain cuz they can't run through it.
Whats new?

[quote=Biker123]@ajwright92
@Jellyquest
@AckarRed
@kelvin111111
@Redadin
@xtripled
@snowdragon470
@Narwhol
@snowdragon470

Lol. You guys got the idea of what makes bossing challenging all wrong. The most important aspect of bossing is skill/strategy and damage comes after. Ever since BB, this has shifted.

Do you remember how bosses like zakum, horntail, pink bean, or any other pre BB boss where all taken down?

Sure people back then had just enough damage combined as a expedition (pre-bb), but they mainly relied on strategy/skill (not pure damage). They didn't just kill bosses by simply attacking it. They all had an intricate plan/method worked out from start to finish. Not everyone needed damage back then go bossing. If you were unfunded or couldn't afford NX, you probably made a bishop and played as a support, or an HB mule, or whatever it was required for that specific boss. Nowadays that doesn't exist.

Nowadays there's no skill/strategy involved in bossing, all you need is pure damage to take down a boss which doesn't make the game fun for anyone (funded non funded). Or if it does require some strategy, you can only bring up to 6 players that are funded.

So the point is, adding a new boss with more zeros after its hp doesn't make the game challenging, it makes it more or less pointless. They should make a boss that's challenging with no emphasis on damage but the minds/brains of maplers to come up with a plan using their resources. However, some damage required is good.

A great analogy is basketball. Each team has a few players that makes all the points (does the damage), however a basketball team can't win if they don't have good defenders or rebounders (the people who usually don't make as much points and play as a support). In terms of maplestory bossing should be like a basketball team where more than just damage to get the win. Nowadays its either one person making all the points or 6 of them. Same idea goes for any other sports: baseball, football, volleyball, etc...

P.S. And if you haven't noticed, eventually they will most likely release a new OP class that will be able to solo her (dorothy), thus creating hype and causing everyone to make one. Thus the process repeats again, and the rich stay rich, and the poor are useless and not needed in anything. Wake up![/quote]

Thanks Alex Jones

[quote=snowdragon470]@Biker123: You absolutely did not counter any of my points, in fact you supported them i dont see how i "got it all wrong".[/quote]

Same with mine. I think he was just blanket tagging everyone. The counter to his point is that this is not all bosses. Gollux is fairly new and takes quite a bit of strategy regardless of what numbers you hit.

Scrolling down, you can see the comments get longer and longer

[quote=Darksword]@Biker123 Would Hekaton play that role as being "one of those skill/strategy bosses"?[/quote]

YES! But I've been waiting for 7 months for that to come out. This game takes forever in bringing quality content, and the fact they are now working on Maplestory 2 just means that Maplestory will be thrown aside, so don't expect anything fancy. That's why I barely play this game, but it's still interesting to go on basil and see whats up from time to time.

@Biker123: You absolutely did not counter any of my points, in fact you supported them i dont see how i "got it all wrong".

@Biker123 Would Hekaton play that role as being "one of those skill/strategy bosses"?

@ajwright92
@Jellyquest
@AckarRed
@kelvin111111
@Redadin
@xtripled
@snowdragon470
@Narwhol
@snowdragon470

Lol. You guys got the idea of what makes bossing challenging all wrong. The most important aspect of bossing is skill/strategy and damage comes after. Ever since BB, this has shifted.

Do you remember how bosses like zakum, horntail, pink bean, or any other pre BB boss where all taken down?

Sure people back then had just enough damage combined as a expedition (pre-bb), but they mainly relied on strategy/skill (not pure damage). They didn't just kill bosses by simply attacking it. They all had an intricate plan/method worked out from start to finish. Not everyone needed damage back then go bossing. If you were unfunded or couldn't afford NX, you probably made a bishop and played as a support, or an HB mule, or whatever it was required for that specific boss. Nowadays that doesn't exist.

Nowadays there's no skill/strategy involved in bossing, all you need is pure damage to take down a boss which doesn't make the game fun for anyone (funded non funded). Or if it does require some strategy, you can only bring up to 6 players that are funded.

So the point is, adding a new boss with more zeros after its hp doesn't make the game challenging, it makes it more or less pointless. They should make a boss that's challenging with no emphasis on damage but the minds/brains of maplers to come up with a plan using their resources. However, some damage required is good.

A great analogy is basketball. Each team has a few players that makes all the points (does the damage), however a basketball team can't win if they don't have good defenders or rebounders (the people who usually don't make as much points and play as a support). In terms of maplestory bossing should be like a basketball team where more than just damage to get the win. Nowadays its either one person making all the points or 6 of them. Same idea goes for any other sports: baseball, football, volleyball, etc...

P.S. And if you haven't noticed, eventually they will most likely release a new OP class that will be able to solo her (dorothy), thus creating hype and causing everyone to make one. Thus the process repeats again, and the rich stay rich, and the poor are useless and not needed in anything. Wake up!

@kelvin111111 @ajwright92

I feel like you're both missing the point. I have seen videos of people trying dorothy while hitting max damage and not even get her HP half down in the time limit. The issue is that they simply made her 100% impossible, which means that this is not an issue of whether there is strategy or not. If you want strategy, go to gollux. He's the perfect combination of high (but manageable) HP and a requirement of skill. Dorothy doesn't take skill if she's impossible no matter what you do.

@snowdragon470: see you misunderstood my comment. Never did i say you didn't need NX, i just said you didn't need to spend your own money. There are other ways to obtain NX other than straight out of your own, or your parent's wallet/credit card as you noted. Also, it's very possible to merch up from nothing, @cherrytigers and other merchants are prime examples of not needing to invest your own money but can still become "godly'. Also, it's very easy to make 20-50m a day at least being completely unfunded, all you need is the know how and time. Not to mention Nexon basically handing you money through hot days and attendance events, or flat out events.

[quote=xtripled]disagree, given the amount equips already in the market, if we implemented the unlimited time factor, there would be even more deflation. Sure it's more fair, but life isn't fair. They're end game bosses for a reason, not everyone should be able to do them. That's the whole point of the game, progress and improve your character over time or sit on your chair all day looking at cute pixels. Now people are sure to say "i don't want to spend xxx to be strong in maplestory" and that's fine, i'm sure you have better things to spend on but do realize, not all funded people spend money on this game. As i'm sure you know, but i just made that statement in regards to the other people who posted on this video.[/quote]

I love how everytime someone tries to defend the argument that not everyone needs money to be funded in this game is a real thing. Listen, you NEED nx to get funded in this game to even SELL items you need nx for a store permit, to UPGRADE your equipment you need nx heck to even TRANSFER most end game equipment after wearing them you need nx, at MOST what these players manage to do is merch their way up and eventually reach that point where their revenue in game is enough to sustain them by buying nx from other players (which is against the ToS ) to even begin doing this you need a base of funding, at the very least you need 20m, so either spend MONTHS slowing merching ure way up just to come to that lucky point of being able to buy nx from others, which mind you still requires real life money or spend a couple hundred and save ure time most if not all in the top 1% have at the very least spent 500$~1k on this game since thats around the amount of money minimum you might need to merch off your dmg.

Side note: i saw a Eunwol doing max dmg all hits ( unlike this paladin hitting 20~30m on avg) and the best he got her down to was 40% so the greed is clearly a problem here.

@ajwright92: It isn't an option though, to get to that sort of damage you need to pour a lot of money into the game.

[quote=ajwright92]@AckarRed:
The fact that this boss is challenging and can't be killed is a great addition to the game. From other video ive watched of Dorothy I see she can actually kill you rather than tanking mediocre dmg from atks. It's challenging because you have to find ways to dodge her attacks and not be killed. From what I see there isn't a time limit, so that is a great factor. Rather than to be standing in 1 spot spamming a move because there isn't anything else during the fight that causes you to actually and and maneuver yourself.

The point of the matter is as you can see no one is running through this boss Funded or Not.[/quote]

What? There IS a time limit. See the orange bar on the top center window? Yeah. It's hard to read how much time this guy has left considering the poor quality. But most of the time, nobody is going to have more than 30 minutes in Dorothy. Hell, you'd be LUCKY to have 20 minutes.

@Redadin:
@ajwright92:
Sorry if i wasnt clear enough, yes what your saying is right and desirable and [b]should[/b] happen but it [b]hasnt happened.[/b] In no way is any new boss with a few exceptions a [b]fair implementation that calls for challenge and skill[/b]. The argument that one should 'boss for five hours if they choose to' is deeply flawed as it is not 'desirable' whilst you could argue that '[b]you find it fair and challenging[/b], majority would agree that it is unfair. But then again, this is a business, with the main goals of generating revenue rather than 'gamer satisfaction'.

[quote=xtripled]disagree, given the amount equips already in the market, if we implemented the unlimited time factor, there would be even more deflation. Sure it's more fair, but life isn't fair. They're end game bosses for a reason, not everyone should be able to do them. That's the whole point of the game, progress and improve your character over time or sit on your chair all day looking at cute pixels. Now people are sure to say "i don't want to spend xxx to be strong in maplestory" and that's fine, i'm sure you have better things to spend on but do realize, not all funded people spend money on this game. As i'm sure you know, but i just made that statement in regards to the other people who posted on this video.[/quote]

This guy gets it.

[quote=Redadin]Wrong. Every boss should have unlimited time and be up to the player whether they want to try and survive for 5 hours or 5 minutes depending on their funding. That to me is fair and more challenging to those that don't have the funding.[/quote]

disagree, given the amount equips already in the market, if we implemented the unlimited time factor, there would be even more deflation. Sure it's more fair, but life isn't fair. They're end game bosses for a reason, not everyone should be able to do them. That's the whole point of the game, progress and improve your character over time or sit on your chair all day looking at cute pixels. Now people are sure to say "i don't want to spend xxx to be strong in maplestory" and that's fine, i'm sure you have better things to spend on but do realize, not all funded people spend money on this game. As i'm sure you know, but i just made that statement in regards to the other people who posted on this video.

[quote=ajwright92]@kelvin111111: But that's exactly my point. Not every boss should be able to be killed unless you have major funds. Trust me Dorothy isn't the only one to not be defeated by anything for a while. I mean look at the CRA bosses. People tried to kill them before but they couldn't. That's the thrill of challenge.[/quote]

Wrong. Every boss should have unlimited time and be up to the player whether they want to try and survive for 5 hours or 5 minutes depending on their funding. That to me is fair and more challenging to those that don't have the funding.

[quote=ajwright92]@kelvin111111: But that's exactly my point. Not every boss should be able to be killed unless you have major funds. Trust me Dorothy isn't the only one to not be defeated by anything for a while. I mean look at the CRA bosses. People tried to kill them before but they couldn't. That's the thrill of challenge.[/quote]

But it doesn't justify spending hundreds of dollars just to barely keep up, only to get equipment that wouldn't even be worth the effort. Also, going with that logic with CRA, that means Nexon would eventually spawn another myriad of buffs and broken stat items, damaging the game even further.

@kelvin111111: But that's exactly my point. Not every boss should be able to be killed unless you have major funds. Trust me Dorothy isn't the only one to not be defeated by anything for a while. I mean look at the CRA bosses. People tried to kill them before but they couldn't. That's the thrill of challenge.

[quote=ajwright92]@AckarRed:
The fact that this boss is challenging and can't be killed is a great addition to the game. From other video ive watched of Dorothy I see she can actually kill you rather than tanking mediocre dmg from atks. It's challenging because you have to find ways to dodge her attacks and not be killed. From what I see there isn't a time limit, so that is a great factor. Rather than to be standing in 1 spot spamming a move because there isn't anything else during the fight that causes you to actually and and maneuver yourself.

The point of the matter is as you can see no one is running through this boss Funded or Not.[/quote]

Your missing the point. Yes, the way the boss is structured does indeed add challenge to it. But, the fact that she has so much health calls for more funding/money/revenue. Regardless of ones competence to move around/dodge, you [b]have to[/b] be funded to be able to kill her, unless you could withstand her with your 'skill' for a couple of hours, funding is [b]essential[/b].

@AckarRed:
The fact that this boss is challenging and can't be killed is a great addition to the game. From other video ive watched of Dorothy I see she can actually kill you rather than tanking mediocre dmg from atks. It's challenging because you have to find ways to dodge her attacks and not be killed. From what I see there isn't a time limit, so that is a great factor. Rather than to be standing in 1 spot spamming a move because there isn't anything else during the fight that causes you to actually and and maneuver yourself.

The point of the matter is as you can see no one is running through this boss Funded or Not.

[quote=ajwright92]@Jellyquest: That is an option. It also calls for strategy and like I stated before gives a challenge rather than ppl running through a boss.[/quote]

How is pumping a lot of money into a boss that you can't even party only to lose a challenge? This kind of crap is why people complain about the lack of content in this game.

@Jellyquest: That is an option. It also calls for strategy and like I stated before gives a challenge rather than ppl running through a boss.

[quote=ajwright92]Which brings the element of challenge back to the game.[/quote]

You mean people needing to dump more money into the game?

[quote=Plenair]But it's another boss 99% of the population can't even dream of taking on.[/quote]

Which brings the element of challenge back to the game.

[quote=ajwright92]About time a boss people can't solo in 2 minutes or less[/quote]

well there is hekaton but yea you're right it is about time.

About time a boss people can't solo in 2 minutes or less

[quote=traderweak]why don't people party and fight?[/quote]
Two things:
1. You can't party. Well you *could* but you wouldn't be in the same dorothy map.
and
2. Even if you could gather a group of people to take her down in a party, The Seed has a time limit. You have to go through roughly 45 different maps, each having a different obstacle. Some obstacles take people longer than others. So once your whole party reaches Floor 50 (dorothy), some people may have 5 minutes left in The Seed, while others have 20 minutes.

[quote=traderweak]why don't people party and fight?[/quote]

can you party in that thing?