General

I have never seen a more perfectly useless thread. We covered this base months ago, people stop complaining.

Play the game to enjoy yourself, party with friends or friendly maplers. Ignore rude people. Basically play the game by your own terms. Maplestory is a near broken game at this point so learn to have fun by playing it the way you want to.

I enjoy my class so much, I don't even care if I see a Phantom using HS. Just the other day I ran into a Phantom who was so happy I was in the same map as them. "Thank you so much for the HS" he said and I said "You're welcome" because it's hard to find support in this game when the players are rude about 80% of the time. In fact I see Phantoms leeching on ropes and HSing just like some other Bishops so the argument that Phantoms replace Bishops in parties is complete garbage. It all depends on the player behind the class.

I fund my Bishop to death simply because she is my favourite character and I have the most fun with her. I know if I had her equips on an Evan or even that Luminous class thing that's coming out I would be "OPomgmgm1!" but you know that's not what Maplestory is about...

guys, theres one thing nexon should do if they nerf bishops, REPLACE HOLY SYMBOL WITH ANOTHER SUPPORT SKILL THAT DOESN'T GIVE EXP. Then that girl there would have no excuse, because noone would find letting a bishop leech worth it anymore, so she would HAVE to run around AT LEAST to buff, if not attack, she once said there's no problem doing it because noone kicks her for doing it, and thats just wrong, because just because you don't get punished for it doesn't make it okay or right, just think about it, before the 1940's, slavery was perfectly legal, and slaves were considered property by law, and like all property, escaped slaves were returned to their owners if captured, and mairrages were originally mandated by the state because at the time WIVES WERE CONSIDERED PROPERTY, thats proof enough that just because doing something doesn't punished for doesn't make it ok. Look, it isn't fair that you leech when you are in a party just because your good for support, and not attacking, even if you don't attack, then you should at least be entitled to having to run around buffing people, because making them come to YOU speeds down their training like 5%, and they probably don't want to give some of their attention to their buffs, just to tell if hs is running out. I mean its not THAT much to ask for for you to run around, whether or not you actually attack. And the fact is, you'd be 30% more efficient at support if you walked around, and you shouldn't even HAVE to worry about dieng, I mean, you're already paying attention to how much time hs has, so it shouldn't be that hard to see if magic guard runs out, attackers need to keep track of at LEAST THREE OR FOUR BUFFS, and if knew how to watch your hp, mp, and buffs like someone who plays this game, it wouldn't be too hard to walk around, I mean, if your not attacking, just walking, you shouldn't take as much damage because you just take like 2 hits of touch damage getting through them, and with magic guard you can tank like 10hits, just look at mercedes, they can barely tank 2 hits if they're lucky, look, your afraid of dying potion burn, as one of the reasons you don't walk around, and when people say you should if not only to heal, you say healing isnt important, thats what nlc potions are for, well if your afraid of pot burn, then you should know how others feel, being unable to afk, spending millions of mesos a month on potions, and know that if you healed, MAYBE you'd have to spend a lot more on potions, but your alleviating others potion burn, and the whole reason one should want to play a bishop is TO HELP OTHERS thats why people choose a support class, not to be lazy, if they removed HS then everyone would complain, but then people would forget about hs, and kick lazy bishops out, unless they actively buffed others,moving around and POSSIBLY attack, because none of their support buffs would be worth having to afk, and I know the majority of players don't like grinding, so it seems to me that people play bishops to get out of grinding so all they'd have to do is fund it and get it to 150+ so they can have the real fun part, bossing, its stupid, because they want to get out of the work part, and straight to the reward part. But, if they DO remove hs, replace with a non aggressive support skill.

[quote=Light363]with all those facts i still get chosen over phantoms any day. it doesnt mean anything. haha[/quote]

It doesn't matter if you get chosen over a Phantom or not...

Point is, Bishops are a sorry excuse for a support class no matter how you look at it.

[quote=MagiBombchu]A lot of phantoms, myself included, would rather use other skills than those if we can. If a bishop isn't around, than no bishop is being harmed by a phantom using bishop moves now are they?
Um, no. 4th job requires skillbooks just like any other class. Of course since phantoms are new, their books are sky high.

Well yeah, that's the point of a phantom. They can do a whole bunch of things. They just can't do one paticular thing as good as a specialist.[/quote]

Yes it is hurting a Bishop since Phantoms clearly have superior damage even if they run HS. Why should a particular job be devalued even more in their support by a class that can do nearly the exact same thing while maintaining a higher DPS?

SKILLbooks=/=MASTERY books. People really need to learn this(Not just you, I had my whole guild asking if Hilla dropped any PHANTOM SKILLbooks, which don't exist). Angel Ray 10, Advanced Combo Attack 10, Final Cut 10...THOSE are skillbooks. Only certain classes(Hero, Evan, Aran, Dual Blade, Bishop and Paladin need them) need SKILLbooks while every class needs MASTERY books. A Bishop requires a skillbook for their main attack while a Phantom does not, and considering the drop rate of skillbooks at Zakum/Hilla(Czak has kept normal Zak drop rates, but why should I NEED connections for my main skills?)... Well, a Bishop has to put a lot more effort just to get a sub-par attack compared to a Phantom.

Every class is supposed to have a disadvantage and no class benefits by overlapping two similar classes(Having two Paladins doesn't give +4 to all skill levels from 2 CO's, for example). Phantom is the exception; they can run a myriad of buffs to benefit the party which is completely unbalanced since they can also take the best attacks for mobbing and 1v1(And supplement it with things such as Combo Attack) in order to increase their raw damage. Exactly how is that even fair? I can understand if they had a glaring disadvantage, but they don't. They have the BEST mobility, high avoid, the damaging OR buffs skills from Explorers of their choice and flexibility that is unparalleled to any other class. And in a game where flexibility is key(Nobody wants to play a class who's 1v1 or mobbing sucks compared to everyone) Phantoms are quite good. Those who specialize might be a little bit better, but if a Phantom can do something else better than them as well without being handicapped then is it really a problem?

Most of the phantoms who steal HS and other buffs don't even cast them and they are mostly afk, its the new generation of maplers. "B> LEECH PLOX"

I'd pick a bishop over a phantom

[quote=Elceya]Also, compared to an Evan's skill though, bring only one party member back to life feels a bit jipped even if we can use it anytime a person dies lol. Although having combat orders to lower the cool-down time is the best solution which I wouldn't really need spammable Resurrection anyway.
[/quote]

What.. .___. Resurrection can revive more than one person as long the people you are reviving (up to 5) are in the vicinity of the Resurrection's range. Also, you only lose 1% at bosses.. so I don't see why that can be such a big problem

@Elceya Magic Crash has a cooldown for consecutive crashes because it let some bosses be a cakewalk with 3 Warriors because they couldn't DR/Null attacks. I don't think they do the same thing, since Magic Crash prevents a boss from buffing while Dispel will take away negative status from your party. I think they're somewhat similar, but considering how Dispel doesn't affect the 'deadly' status conditions I don't see why it should have a cooldown. If Magic Crash didn't block a boss from casting DR or Nulls and just prevented Attack/Defense up, then I doubt it would have a cooldown. Now, if Dispel was changed to take away Zombify, Seduce and the other status conditions you usually can't Dispel while being given a cooldown well... We might be getting somewhere.

Perhaps you aren't taking 'fear' the same way I am. By 'fear', perhaps I should say 'risk'. There's little risk of death in anything but the highest end bosses. If you die without a Bishop, a Wheel or an Evan in certain situations, well... You're boned. And two of those on are on a cooldown while one costs NX. But it's not terribly difficult to live as a coward in these bosses by hanging back. A Bishop who hangs back and could spam Res would make death virtually meaningless, other than exp loss(And just boss when you've just leveled; not that difficult). There was also a Perm Safety Charm event, so anyone with that has nothing to fear at all if Res was spammable. I understand how it's a little stupid for Soul Stone to be better, but isn't Soul Stone in 10th growth(160+)? Because then it makes sense for it to be better; Res is 120+ while Soul Stone is 160+.

The only way you could make Res better is by upping the requirement compared to Soul Stone. Or you know, Nexon could always make it so we need to do quests to upgrade our skills, but we all know how bad people whine about anything remotely difficult. I don't mean Genesis HTPQ difficult, but still. It'd be nice to see them balance skills that way since it's actually a pretty damn effective way to balance classes without having to Revamp them.

Healing exp nowadays is horrible. It used to be worthwhile(Ludi PQ with Warriors, take a ton of damage and Heal a lot... Worth it), but now it's just horrible. I mean seriously, compared to the exp you get for attacking it's just worthless. It might as well not be there, that's how little exp it is.

Edit:@Light363 Congratulations, you party with idiots who have no logic. Or they have good Phantoms who benefit from running Combo. Your personal experience does nothing to prove my facts wrong; they still stand. "It doesn't mean anything"... Wow. I can't even begin to say how idiotic that comment is. "MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WHICH IS VARIABLE COUNTERS YOUR FACTS BECAUSE I PARTY WITH IDIOTS OR GET LUCKY". Yup. You totally got me bro. I'm obviously defeated.

[quote=Light363]Those are all opinions I haven't noticed anyone replacing bishops. This thread is pointless goodbye[/quote]

Fact, a Phantom can run HS and Adv Bless, meaning in a training situation where efficiency is concerned they are better than a Bishop, since they can also run HB which would allow them to support better at SH(Where HP actually makes a difference).

Fact, Phantoms have an easier time both obtaining their skills(No skillbooks) AND their skills do more damage than Bishops. Mobility is also vastly superior compared to a Bishop as well, meaning they have an easier time getting in position to use their skills which also have better range/mobility(Moving while attacking for Carte Mille and Tempest has a large range).

Fact, Phantoms can adapt to a Bishop in the party by running Combo and another 4th job skill while a Bishop can't adapt at all.

Of course you can deny that Phantoms have better damage but I think it's obvious you're only kidding yourself. I don't see how the thread is useless when you didn't actually go so far as to disprove what I said, you just said "Opinions, you're wrong.". Try actually disproving me with some facts of your own.

I can care less who I get. It's first come first serve.
However I do expect them both to have the proper buffs.

[quote=Light363]Close this lame thread. It's pointless now. My last one pretty much put everything your crying about to rest.[/quote]

Phantom with funding>Bishop with funding. Phantom can have the Bishop's useful buffs, so there's no reason to have a Bishop unless they outdamage someone in your party or you have a free spot so the Phantom can run Combo+4th job attack/buff. It makes Bishops who are average less useful, rope hangers are useless and Bishops who are funded won't notice much change because of how they get organized parties(Not to mention the fact that they'd probably beat an average Phantom, but not a funded one).

Boss runs are a different story, but training wise if a Phantom runs HS+Adv Bless there's less reason to get a Bishop than before. A Phantom can essentially be a Bishop without Healing, better mobility and more damage with less funds. I don't see how that "Puts what we're 'crying' about to rest".

[quote=hyperfire7]In the 2nd warrior revamp, the duration gets increased to 180 sec.
Edit: Oh, they also stack with other attack buffs now too <3[/quote]

Ah, that makes sense. I don't really keep up with the updates until they hit GMS.

@DrStrangenoob That's the problem I guess. Some people were used to a 120 second HS duration so it's not that hard to live with 12 seconds less. Unless there are some other nerfs(Such as reducing the effectiveness of stolen buffs or making them buff only the Phantom) then it's not really enough to make Bishops useful again. It's still just 'nice' to have a Bishop in a party if you can; if not then it's still manageable, which is the bad part.

[quote=Tricks122]@DrStrangenoob Rage is 155 seconds I think, I know it's not 200 since I've been training a Crusader recently and I know it wasn't on the same timer as Booster/Combo Attack, unless I'm really, REALLY oblivious.

Although that is interesting. The post I saw it in has nerfs that seemed really severe(Even for Nexon Nerfs) and everyone called the TS a troll, so I assumed it was fake. Interesting tho. But it doesn't mean much, since Phantoms have the best mobility and maps aren't really that large, so if a Phantom is half-decent at buffing he'll still be able to keep people buffed[/quote]

My mistake about rage, haven't played the fighter-crusader line before. I remember seeing that troll thread about phantom nerfs, so I can see why people are so quick to dismiss comments about the nerfed stolen buff duration for phantoms. I kinda thought the same before reading some discussion on KMS blogs/forums about the phantom nerf.

But if we could handle a 120 second duration for HS pre-JUMP revamp, it shouldn't be too hard for phantoms to deal with 108 second HS.

[quote=Tricks122]@DrStrangenoob Rage is 155 seconds I think, I know it's not 200 since I've been training a Crusader recently and I know it wasn't on the same timer as Booster/Combo Attack, unless I'm really, REALLY oblivious.[/quote]
In the 2nd warrior revamp, the duration gets increased to 180 sec.
Edit: Oh, they also stack with other attack buffs now too <3

@DrStrangenoob Rage is 155 seconds I think, I know it's not 200 since I've been training a Crusader recently and I know it wasn't on the same timer as Booster/Combo Attack, unless I'm really, REALLY oblivious.

Although that is interesting. The post I saw it in has nerfs that seemed really severe(Even for Nexon Nerfs) and everyone called the TS a troll, so I assumed it was fake. Interesting tho. But it doesn't mean much, since Phantoms have the best mobility and maps aren't really that large, so if a Phantom is half-decent at buffing he'll still be able to keep people buffed

@Elceya

Yeah, which is kinda why I think there could potentially be room for 5th job, but then again, I don't think Nexon has the creative ability/effort to pull something like that off anytime soon. I'm just hoping they'll give us something more for hyper skills than just Hur Dur DAMAGE CAP BUSTING HYPER LAZORZ ATTACK

@Tricks122

I think there's actually some truth behind that rumor. The nerfed stolen buff duration is confirmed by Joe Tang of Southperry in post 173 of this thread: http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=50829&page=9

Also, for video evidence, take a look at this post-tempest phantom bossing vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_IIdI9yXH4
He casts rage and combo attack around 1:25, and the skill icons start flashing around 3:10. That's about 105 seconds of duration for a 200 second skill. Compare that to default 240 sec phantom skills such as Pray of Aria which he had cast before rage and combo attack, which have barely reached the halfway mark of their buff duration.
Even the video maker, a KMS player, confirms it in the comments section.

[quote=KilIerCombo]You will go back to being wanted in parties once phantom gets nerfed. Supposably they get -60% buff duration meaning they have to HS twice as often, nobody wants to get hs every 108 seconds instead of every 180.[/quote]

That was a troll, I've yet to see actual confirmation of this ANYWHERE. I'm fairly certain Phantoms are getting a minor nerf but I believe the only effect on stolen skills will be a 30 second cooldown on switching between them.

[quote=evil85]Support class? what are you talking about? Ever since phantom came out "R>Phantom for SH" Phantom stole the last thing we could actually do.[/quote]
That statement in itself proves the first posters statement of, "Bishops are a support class." You're admitting that the "the last thing we could actually do" was holy symbol/advanced blessing.

@Elceya Most classes have only self heals(I believe Mechanics and Demon Slayers have party heals for HP and Evans have MP party heal) and I don't believe any class can Dispel, they just have Status Resist. If Res/Holy Magic Shell was spammable then there's be virtually no fear of death(Not that there is much now anyways), as long as your Bishop did the pathetically easy task of staying away and when you died coming to spam Res/Holy Magic Shell, you'd have no fear.

I'd like to see HS be removed as well, but the problem is that Nexon wants training to be easy so they keep it in-game. A somewhat mid-way solution would be to have a charge-up system(As I said) but include attack AND support buffs, but make it so you could only choose between one or the other at a specific time. It wouldn't kill a Bishop's support, but it would make them have the choice between being a decent attacker or a better buffer.

I know Healing gives exp but it's virtually nothing. I mean seriously, it's not even close to worthwhile and not worth considering. And you can't really make it worthwhile exp wise because then it'd be easy to exploit by having people take large amounts of damage and a Bishop spamming heal, so you need to make it worth it in another way.

[quote=Elceya]I was just looking up the KMS updates, maybe Bishops will have a revamp since you can job advance to 4th at level 100. Hopefully, they're creating more interesting skills that will make the classes more balanced or fun to play? *crosses fingers*

@Tricks122: Nice suggestions. Not sure if I like the meter thing though, but it would definitely make Bishops interesting to play. Good luck in school! ^^[/quote]

It doesn't need to be a meter, it simply needs to be some sort of system where Bishops are rewarded for attacking or properly supporting(Healing and not buffs). There are a lot of ways you can implement a system like that, you just need to pick one that makes sense and would promote Bishops to be active in a way that plays to their support role. And thanks, hopefully I won't need it(Especially since it's Education )

[quote=Elceya]I was just looking up the KMS updates, maybe Bishops will have a revamp since you can job advance to 4th at level 100. Hopefully, they're creating more interesting skills that will make the classes more balanced or fun to play? *crosses fingers*[/quote]

I'm thinking the soonest possible "revamp" bishops will be getting in KMS would have to be when they add hyper skills for adventurers. Given that each class gets 3 active hyper skills, I'm hoping they'll give us at least 2 useful hyper skill party buffs/utility skills.

And I really don't know what Nexon is planning, lowering the 4th job advancement level to 100. Because now that leaves about 15-20 levels of unused SP or something in 4th job. Possible 5th job advancement in the future? I dunno, but having all that unused SP looks weird to me.

well whenever i'm on my phantom, i'm glad to have a bishop in my party, simply means i don't need to give HS and start using attack buffs instead

@OmnipotArc Make it so Bishops have a combo system similar to Arans/Buccaneers/Heroes, hits would 'charge' a sort of meter(Which would have multiple stages) and as the meter grows it could unlock better support abilities for a Bishop. At one point make it so Dispell could remove some of the more deadly status effects(Perhaps not Seduce, but maybe Zombify or even allow it to remove buffs from mobs such as DR/Phys+Mag Null), make a lower 'meter' one which would allow Heal to not be considered Holy(Hence not be affected by Zombify), ect. There are a lot of ways to balance Bishops in a support way which still requires them to to consistently attack.

There's a lot of things you could do with a meter-like ability. Make it so it'll drain some of the meter every time you use one of the meter skills which would make it so you'd need to consistently attack. Heck, it's not that difficult to add a single meter skill and have it activate when you use certain Bishop skills with enough meter. There's a lot of things you could do with something like that which would allow Bishops to me more supportive while encouraging them to actively attack.

@Elceya Heh, I'll pass on the visits, but I believe you. I have a feeling that soon enough I'll be adapting your style of AFK and play, since I'll be a full time student this year

Edit: @TroiSky I can get that, but actual funding isn't an argument since meso prices are player based. If you had said with the same or weaker gear(Or not mentioned prices) I'd have been fine. But I understand your points, and I agree with them to a degree.

[quote=Tricks122]@TroiSky Gear being hard to find has nothing to do with this; you can't blame the economy(Which is player based) for making more Thief equipments since they're worth more, hence more people want them. That has no relevance.[/quote]

I was not blaming the economy, I was merely expanding on how absurd that the DB can beat his dojo time with a gap the size of the Grand Canyon compared to Omni's. I believe that has a relevance because it affects their performance.

Anyways I believe we have come to an agreement after reading all these posts.
[quote=MysticSyrup]1) I think making Bishops an attacker class would be fine. My only concern would be that since Luminous is already a Light/Darkness Mage, making Bishops a wear version of this Light Mage may not do the class justice. [/quote]
Options 1 or 3 would be fine for me, I wouldn't mind being a .. copy compared to Luminous. For example, remember MMs and Wild Hunters? On the higher tier levels those two jobs have a different style of attack even though they are kind of the same jobs. An MM is a mobber and a WH is more of a 1v1 (due Wild Arrow Blast). But yeah since a Luminous is more of a mobber.. They could get rid of HS and buff them to a 1v1?

For option 3, I have a few ideas that Nexon could do for Bishops :
- Since we already have a mobile shield (HMS), why not give us a stationary one as well? For example,(lower level bossing situation) in Zakum you have a dead party member on top of Zak. He/She cannot survive the initial hit of respawning on Zakum. A Bishop can not automatically cast a shell on the party member after Ressurection is completed due to a slight delay. By the time the delay is over, the party member would of died again. This is where the stationary shield comes in .

- Give Dispell the ability to cast away zombify, seduce, and pot lock. (with limitations of course..)

- Buff up Adv Bless so that it would give more HP/MP and maybe even a +10% (?) status resist.

I believe with these idea, it will make Bishops an absolute priority to have on bossing runs because it ensures the survivalbility, success, and swiftness of the run.

Oh and @MysticSyrup I appreciate your compliment

EDIT: 100th post on my screen f5

[quote=MysticSyrup]

I understood what he said (or at least I think I do lol). I just think that both traits of a Bishop being "weak" and a DB being "strong" are inherently built into the types of characters they are. Yes, the gap is large, but the comparison is between a class near the top of the DPS chart with a class that is at the bottom, due to speed and number of lines. To become closer to matching a DB, the Bishop would have to gain faster skills with more lines. All the classes are starting to become way too same, I don't think further propelling ourselves down this road is a good idea.

That being said, it's not that I think Bishops shouldn't get a boost in power, I just don't think the comparison between Bishop and DB as evidence for the need to greatly revamp Bishop attacks is entirely fair (even with the large difference in %stat). DBs don't get hit anymore (+Life Drain, while normal attacking), so they don't have to stop and care for their HP may be a factor as well for Dojo speed.

[/quote]
True, DB's have just been revamped and all, and are high on dpm charts. Still, do you think our "support" abilities at this stage of the game justify such a disparity between us in terms of required funding for pure damage? i.e.: Should I have to sacrifice somewhere around $1000 more in value than a DB, because I have "support" skills that are "useful", to make up for the dpm loss? Are our support skills really worth THAT much? Does he have to pay $1000 more to cover for the loss of the bishop support skills that we provide?
I think not, but apparently that's what a bishop has gather to cover the dpm loss; and even for those willing to fund more, there is a limit: you can't actually outfund a DB as a bishop even if the DB had a set amount and the bishop had unlimited resources (you will hit a glass ceiling while he can rise above you). That is why, for funded characters, I say class is what matters, not amount of funding.

There are other things of course, such as mages being better mobbers as I said earlier (but is that really true? bucc/laser blast? DS?), that factor into this argument, but still, this difference is extreme to the point where it's not justifiable.

[quote=MysticSyrup]
For Empress, I absolutely love Bishops for Dispel. A carefully-timed Heal every here and there is useful to me as well. I agree with you in that the times have moved on, and kinda left Bishops in the dust, but I think this is a matter of revamping the buffs and adding more.
[/quote]
Empress is the only boss I think Bishops actually serve a mediocre purpose, because all the support skills can actually be useful for her (specifically due to potlock and no-respawn).
For any other boss, taking a higher dpm class is usually better than taking a bishop nowadays, because most boss runs are fast enough that support is not really needed. Many runs I see do not take bishops at all, outside of empress and CHT, because the run would be usually be faster with an equally funded attacking class rather than a bishop.

[quote=MysticSyrup]I think the cost of wheels really depends on how godly you are. For me, I'm definitely nowhere near the top .01% of godly players. I probably would use more wheels and get not as far as godly players, in Empress, so Resurrection really helps out.
[/quote]

I think this is why we have differing points of view. At low-medium levels of funding, I can see why bishops are important, because the kill speed is slower and having a bishop helps protect against many things the bosses throw at you.
At higher levels of funding, need for support role is diminished as the benefits they provided are covered by funds (wheel = res, damage and hp are so high that AB means nothing, pots cover heal and dispel for most bosses, holy shell is about the only useful thing)

My bottom-line argument is that: the rate at which funding amount for an attacker classes diminishes support roles is much steeper than the rate at which funding amount for a support class diminishes dpm roles (If I could draw a graph I would haha, x axis = amount spent funding, y axis = usefulness of others' role). It costs WAY less for an attacker class to fund to the point where it doesn't really benefit much from bishops than for a bishop to fund to the point where it has covered the weight of an attacker class, making bishops pretty useless for higher-funding runs.

[quote=Tricks122]
As for your other arguments, I agree. The problem is how can you balance a class with a raw exp buff with other classes? It's not like any other party skill since having a Bishop in your party instantly augments the amount of exp by large volumes no matter their strength. No other class can do this, so they can't have good damage to compensate. That is called balance.

I don't agree with the way Bishops are right now as a class. When I first played Maple Priests(4th job wasn't released) were incredibly valuable due to high potion costs(So Heal was useful) and how Status Effects weren't as easily avoided(I don't believe any class had Status Resist, and Darkness/Seal without a Bishop would cost a ton in All Cures OR make your run horribly slow). The problem is every class has slowly been getting features that used to be nearly unique to Priests/Bishops; self Heal, party Heal, Status Resist... Your role has been diminished because every class has become more independent and increased in strength. But you can't use that as an excuse to buff your power while you keep the best party support in game for training. That's not balanced.

If Bishops want more power they need to lose HS because the skill has been broken since it's been released. You can't justify a skill like that on a class with average damage because it's the only class that can increase their exp in a way no other class has the option to do.[/quote]

This is something I actually agree with, and I say Nexon should do 1 of these 3 things:

1) Make bishops an attacker class: (essentially a holy arch-mage)
- get rid of HS entirely
- give us more attack speed and/or lines, like buccs

2) Make bishops a leveling class:
- keep HS, but make it a self buff only
- to explain, I'll give an example:
Let's say you have 2 people: a dpm person (NL) and bishop in a party with exactly equal funding (and 4 other leechers for the bonus)
This party attacks and kills a random party play mob. Let's say NL gets 1500 exp, and bishop get 1000exp, because the NL does more damage and gets more base exp, as well as the multiplier from having 6 people in the party. Now if the bishop hs's everyone, the NL gets (lets say) 2250 exp, and the bishop gets only 1500exp, but both were attacking the whole time, the NL just had more damage. Does the NL share his damage with the bishop? No, but the bishop shared the exp buff, so in the end, the NL gets' to train faster than the bishop. You might argue "the bishop gets this exp buff no matter party he/she is in, but the NL doesnt"; well guess what, the NL gets his damage whatever party he is in but the bishop doesn't, because we are assuming both are equal funding.
By keeping HS a self buff (still requiring party members for the 150% bonus), both would get 1500 exp, so it's fair for training and instead, exp gain boils down to the party they get which is assumed random.

the problem with this is that varying funding levels will produce varying results: at low funding, leech might be at 1000, and hs would make that 1500, but the NL only does so much that he gains 1200 (assuming hs is self buff), so the bishop would be getting more exp. At high funding, the NL will gain much more of the exp per kill, and the bishop will too, but the multiplier is larger for the party play than it is for HS, so the NL will actually be getting more exp.

3) Make bishops a support class:
This is the most difficult, but (I believe) best solution to bring about.
- The game has grown in a way that has much less beneficial impact from support skills, and it is easy to solo bosses now aside from empress.
- Bishop support skills would have to be innovative, and help for both training and bossing. Holy shell is a great example of that, but it's hard to come up with more.
- Bishops are not great support in most bossing because they only have 1 or 2 skills that would help make that boss run better; many dpm classes also have 1 or 2 buff skills (hero/AM = rage/medi; bucc = si, bowmen = se, Evans/arans have a lot) and some of them are arguably even better than our main one (AB). More active skills would be the best.

@TroiSky Gear being hard to find has nothing to do with this; you can't blame the economy(Which is player based) for making more Thief equipments since they're worth more, hence more people want them. That has no relevance.

As for your other arguments, I agree. The problem is how can you balance a class with a raw exp buff with other classes? It's not like any other party skill since having a Bishop in your party instantly augments the amount of exp by large volumes no matter their strength. No other class can do this, so they can't have good damage to compensate. That is called balance.

I don't agree with the way Bishops are right now as a class. When I first played Maple Priests(4th job wasn't released) were incredibly valuable due to high potion costs(So Heal was useful) and how Status Effects weren't as easily avoided(I don't believe any class had Status Resist, and Darkness/Seal without a Bishop would cost a ton in All Cures OR make your run horribly slow). The problem is every class has slowly been getting features that used to be nearly unique to Priests/Bishops; self Heal, party Heal, Status Resist... Your role has been diminished because every class has become more independent and increased in strength. But you can't use that as an excuse to buff your power while you keep the best party support in game for training. That's not balanced.

If Bishops want more power they need to lose HS because the skill has been broken since it's been released. You can't justify a skill like that on a class with average damage because it's the only class that can increase their exp in a way no other class has the option to do.

My two cents.

@MysticSyrup Our role as a support class has already been diminished. Certain skills from other classes such as : Evan's Soul Stone, BaM's three Auras, Party Shield, etc ..are basically on par with our own.

[quote=MysticSyrup]I DISAGREE with you that Bishops need to be on the same level damage-wise as some of the other classes, but I DO AGREE that Bishops need better/more buffs. They are a support class after all. Yes, a DB is going to out-damage a Bishop, but a DB can't support a party like a Bishop can. [/quote]

You entirely missed his point.. @Omnipotarc 's point was that a DB with a significantly lower funding than himself is able to achieve a faster dojo time than him. We already know a DB can outdamage a Bishop, but in that situation ? That DB's funding is nothing compared to him. If you've played a Mage before, you would know that decent gear is very hard to find. Godly gear is basically endangered ..

Even if a Bishop wasn't made for attacking, it's just preposterous that his DB friend can beat his Bishop with 1/6th of the funding he has. I can even consider it 1/10th.
[quote=MysticSyrup]Bishops are NOT useless. Heal is useful during pot-locked bosses. If given the choice, free res from Bishop or use Wheel, most people would choose res from Bishop. 1 Wheel isn't expensive, but fighting bosses that can kill you, often --> Cost of many wheels will start adding up. [/quote]

I agree that they are not useless, but at this present time in maple, certain "upgrades" in the maple world have made it seem that way. Heal is useful during bosses with pot cool downs, like Empress.. but in that boss, there's a chance of zombify, which means killing off some if not [b]all[/b] your party members and even yourself. Due to these reasons some expeditions don't reccomended a Bishop to use heal.

As for wheels.. When you go Bossing, you would earn rare drops and expensive equips for having a successful run. Those drops are more than enough to cover the cost of those wheels.

[quote=MysticSyrup]Regarding your mention about how other classes have better support skills:
It's not about having Holy Shell OR Smokescreen OR Binding Darkness. It's about having all 3 against strong bosses. These skills aren't a replacement for each other. [/quote]
That's ideal thinking.. Most expeditions don't need all those skills for a successful run, they can be replaced.

[quote=MysticSyrup]Soulstone only works if the buff is on you when you die; anticipating death is almost impossible, Resurrection wins over soulstone easily. [/quote]

I disagree with this, anticipating death is not impossible. Soul Stone has a duration of 300 seconds at maxed level, which is 5minutes. The cool down on this skill is 6minutes, not that hard to stay alive for 1minute while waiting for the cool down. Assuming a expedition will contain a Shadower (which is a popular job..) their smoke has a duration of 1minute. Problem solved.
This skill trumps Ressurection because it's range of use varies. It is not depended on only 1 user like Resurrection is. Say that your whole party died during DR/ Party DR, how will the Bishop ress the whole party? The Bishop is dead. If you had Soul Stone, the whole party can just revive themselves at their own convenience. But what if the Bishop lives? The timing to revive the whole party is crucial, not everyone can be ready at the same time. What if the party was separated throughout the map? Ressurections range would not be able to cover it like Soul Stone can. You won't be able to save everyone.

@MysticSyrup I'm sorry I just have to ask you how is HS considered a support skill? To me a support skill will be heal, res, ab, hms, and the skills that are actually more support oriented. I agree with what you said that bishops need stronger/more buffs, or ( at least what I think) some sort of stronger attack/upgraded ar. I would take a cut in hs power for a better ar any day.

[quote=Deadly1337]@tricks222 i was pqing with a few phantoms that hit max. and I did most of the work. bishops need longer skill ranges[including buffs], our dpm is argueably the worst with max range[we still only hit 3 hits at a time, max] and a stronger class can successfully steal and use our most unique skills without any penalty.

a support class should not be an attack class, a attack class should not be a support class. aka phantom has no right to be stealing support skills.
just like a thief class has no right to use magician skills. the game is quite broken.[/quote]

Phantoms are broken as hell. I'm not even going to put up an argument there; it doesn't take a genius to see how broken they are in every aspect.

As for skill ranges, why not just make Buff Mastery applicable to the party but ONLY for Bishop skills? It makes more sense than longer buff ranges. And as for skill ranges I don't know how far Angel Ray hits, but if it has similar range to the Archmage skills then it shouldn't be longer. If you still have HS I don't see how you should get more damage when HS is broken on a class with average damage. Either remove HS and keep sub-par damage, lose HS and get more damage OR fix their support role by making their buffs better, but requiring you to be attacking consistently in order to keep them up(Similar to Arcane Aim but with a longer duration obviously).

@tricks222 i was pqing with a few phantoms that hit max. and I did most of the work. bishops need longer skill ranges[including buffs], our dpm is argueably the worst with max range[we still only hit 3 hits at a time, max] and a stronger class can successfully steal and use our most unique skills without any penalty.

a support class should not be an attack class, a attack class should not be a support class. aka phantom has no right to be stealing support skills.
just like a thief class has no right to use magician skills. the game is quite broken.

[quote=Jigglypoof]Honestly, Bishops aren't balanced at all. They need more power and the removal of Holy Symbol, or buffs that actually help in boss runs. Bishops are far behind all
The other classes. Yeah, they're powerful with funds, but every other class is MORE powerful with funds. Its garbage. The support class offers no support other than granting greedy party members more experience.

Don't get me wrong, when I'm on my Bishop (which is hardly ever anymore) I attack in a LHC party, simply because I don't enjoy the idea of sitting on a rope, and I get more exp when I attack. However, as I'm attacking, I think "what's the point?" Bishops are next to useless in Boss Runs, their DPM is crap, etc. Support classes serve no purpose in Maple Story. Its the sad truth. I've been playing Bishops/Priests since Pre-4th job, but when the last Bishop skill update let me down, I got rid of all my equips and funded an F/P Mage. Its just more rewarding in the end.[/quote]

If you remove HS I have no problem with Bishops being buffed damage wise. It's just not fair to demand higher damage while you have an exp multiplying buff. Honestly, some bossing oriented buffs would be perfectly fine by me. I agree that Maple pretty much skewered the role Bishop's played with BB, and it wasn't that amazing before. MapleStory isn't really a game where you can have a pure support class because it either turns out like Bishops(Purely used for buffs) or they'd be unbalanced.

It'd be possible to make a support class in MapleStory, but it'd be quite difficult to balance them properly and to make it so they can't be used as buff mules. The only possible way I see for it to work is something like an Aran's combo system that would allow the casting of good party buffs that would stay up for long a duration, but would require you to attack consistently. That's the only way I see it being somewhat balanced.

[quote=Tricks122]I'd rather have an attacking Phantom/Bishop over a leeching one. I've already said you have organised parties if they can make up for the damage you aren't dealing OR you have someone who's funded. How many of the parties you actually join are considered average? Because if you have funded people they don't give a damn about you not attacking since being the main attacker earns them more exp, so they train faster with you leeching. THAT'S WHY THEY LET YOU LEECH. At SH/HoH most parties will have some people who are fairly funded and who want less attacker so they can obtain more exp.

Pre-Revamp Dragon Strike was slow in ST, SI was more limited than a Bishop's buffs, we had less mobility AND we did less damage, yet I'd love to see you point out parties of randoms who would let a 195 Buccaneer leech just for his SI(Which didn't help every class unlike HS, Adv Bless and Holy Magic Shell). As I said before, HS is a DIRECT EXP INCREASE. It doesn't matter how much damage you do, how fast you attack or your party composition, you will INSTANTLY gain 1.5x the exp you should be getting. NO other buff in game can do that. That's the only reason people let you leech. In every party I joined on my Buccaneer I was expected to attack, and yet the Bishop(Who did more damage than me) was allowed to leech. Exactly HOW do you even begin to justify that when based on your logic, I should be allowed to leech?

I will only put up with a Bishop/Phantom who leeches because I have to(Unless they're a mule of an active member). Once an active Bishop/Phantom comes along I WILL kick the leech. All you're doing is being a buff mule; ANYONE can do that. There's no difference between you and a 16x Bishop if you both have the same level buffs since you're not attacking. If a Bishop attacks they get more exp. Same for any other attacking class. HS isn't almost everything you have; fund your Bishop and you'll be able to deal damage. Are you weaker than other classes? Yes, but you're already getting 1.5x the exp for your party just by being there, you're not supposed to beat other classes if they have the same gear because that's not BALANCED. All you're doing in your party is being a buff mule, anyone with 2 computers and a Bishop can do exactly what you're doing and BETTER since they're contributing on another character.

Want more power? HS should be removed then. You can't balance a class to be on par damage wise but receive a static exp buff for the party; that's incredibly broken in several ways. It means you'd be doing as much damage as some classes, and yet for some reason one of your buffs would give 1.5x the exp(Which not party buff comes close to doing). How is that fair?

@MagicBombchu and @Elceya Thank you. Bishops should NOT be getting any special treatment. At this point if Bishops want better damage I'd honestly be fine with them removing HS, the only problem is how EVERYONE is going to whine like heck if it goes. Although Nexon could always buff the exp earned in a party to promote party play even in maps that aren't party play. A class can't have decent damage and a raw exp buff, that's just horrible broken in virtually every single way. I really like seeing Bishops with this mentality, it really makes me feel like not all Bishops are rope hangers. I've yet to see a Bishop actually attacking in a training situation for quite some time ._.[/quote]

Honestly, Bishops aren't balanced at all. They need more power and the removal of Holy Symbol, or buffs that actually help in boss runs. Bishops are far behind all
The other classes. Yeah, they're powerful with funds, but every other class is MORE powerful with funds. Its garbage. The support class offers no support other than granting greedy party members more experience.

Don't get me wrong, when I'm on my Bishop (which is hardly ever anymore) I attack in a LHC party, simply because I don't enjoy the idea of sitting on a rope, and I get more exp when I attack. However, as I'm attacking, I think "what's the point?" Bishops are next to useless in Boss Runs, their DPM is crap, etc. Support classes serve no purpose in Maple Story. Its the sad truth. I've been playing Bishops/Priests since Pre-4th job, but when the last Bishop skill update let me down, I got rid of all my equips and funded an F/P Mage. Its just more rewarding in the end.

[quote=Elceya]I would want a revamp lol. For a solo-Bishop, it would be nice to be able to attack more than just twice while all other classes have skills that attack 5/6 times as their main skill. However, I do love my defense buff skills so I guess a revamp isn't really required. =P

This depends on the party that you're in. If you party with friends, you won't get kicked and Bishops do get kicked too. Not every Bishop get "special" treatment.

lol. When I'm training my Phantom, I didn't bother with HS or Bless unless I really need to use it. Only time I use a Bishop/Priest skill is when I have to kill a boss or monster and need Dispel. I'd much rather have the attack buffs which you can stack 2nd and 3rd job Memory with Phantom's own attack buffs. xD

I did, however, keep the party skills that I might need to use depending on the parties I join. For example, if I'm partying my own Phantom in the future, I saved Meditation for my Bishop. ^^[/quote]

HS > Any 3rd job attack skill.

[quote=JessiePie]@Tricks122: Omg, im srsly getting annoyed because there is a rarity of people who would kick me because im leeching, and accually i always find partys who will let me just buff so the fact that your saying it will be hard to find a party is completly false. i have always done what i have been doing and ive gotten to 195 for now (trying to just get to 200 alrdy T_T). i still think your wrong. Yes, people only let us in there partys for our hs but that is almost all we have. ofc there r those people who hit max dmg but even then ar is very slow, during the mage max dmg glitch it still took me like 15 seconds to kill one (or i guess a mob since ar can pierce)of sh monsters.. ik that seems pretty crazy still but i dont have that kind of dmg. and the partys im with and they are all random people not the same party everytime, they dont want me to attack anyway because they want all the exp from the monster. so yes bishops do leech, but theres barely anyone who says that you shouldnt.[/quote]

I'd rather have an attacking Phantom/Bishop over a leeching one. I've already said you have organised parties if they can make up for the damage you aren't dealing OR you have someone who's funded. How many of the parties you actually join are considered average? Because if you have funded people they don't give a damn about you not attacking since being the main attacker earns them more exp, so they train faster with you leeching. THAT'S WHY THEY LET YOU LEECH. At SH/HoH most parties will have some people who are fairly funded and who want less attacker so they can obtain more exp.

Pre-Revamp Dragon Strike was slow in ST, SI was more limited than a Bishop's buffs, we had less mobility AND we did less damage, yet I'd love to see you point out parties of randoms who would let a 195 Buccaneer leech just for his SI(Which didn't help every class unlike HS, Adv Bless and Holy Magic Shell). As I said before, HS is a DIRECT EXP INCREASE. It doesn't matter how much damage you do, how fast you attack or your party composition, you will INSTANTLY gain 1.5x the exp you should be getting. NO other buff in game can do that. That's the only reason people let you leech. In every party I joined on my Buccaneer I was expected to attack, and yet the Bishop(Who did more damage than me) was allowed to leech. Exactly HOW do you even begin to justify that when based on your logic, I should be allowed to leech?

I will only put up with a Bishop/Phantom who leeches because I have to(Unless they're a mule of an active member). Once an active Bishop/Phantom comes along I WILL kick the leech. All you're doing is being a buff mule; ANYONE can do that. There's no difference between you and a 16x Bishop if you both have the same level buffs since you're not attacking. If a Bishop attacks they get more exp. Same for any other attacking class. HS isn't almost everything you have; fund your Bishop and you'll be able to deal damage. Are you weaker than other classes? Yes, but you're already getting 1.5x the exp for your party just by being there, you're not supposed to beat other classes if they have the same gear because that's not BALANCED. All you're doing in your party is being a buff mule, anyone with 2 computers and a Bishop can do exactly what you're doing and BETTER since they're contributing on another character.

Want more power? HS should be removed then. You can't balance a class to be on par damage wise but receive a static exp buff for the party; that's incredibly broken in several ways. It means you'd be doing as much damage as some classes, and yet for some reason one of your buffs would give 1.5x the exp(Which not party buff comes close to doing). How is that fair?

@MagicBombchu and @Elceya Thank you. Bishops should NOT be getting any special treatment. At this point if Bishops want better damage I'd honestly be fine with them removing HS, the only problem is how EVERYONE is going to whine like heck if it goes. Although Nexon could always buff the exp earned in a party to promote party play even in maps that aren't party play. A class can't have decent damage and a raw exp buff, that's just horrible broken in virtually every single way. I really like seeing Bishops with this mentality, it really makes me feel like not all Bishops are rope hangers. I've yet to see a Bishop actually attacking in a training situation for quite some time ._.

Bishops will never be nerfed due to the being explorers

I haven't trained in a while, so I can't say much about that, but bossing right now is terrible for bishops:

1) Our DPM is absolute crud. And don't give me that "Funding is what matters, not class" BS:
My 200 DB friend can dojo in 12 minutes at 2.7k luk, 60kish range
I can dojo in about 13 minutes, with decent si, 5.8k int, and 135k range.
^ how is this fair at all?

2) "So what, bishops are meant for support?" <- Don't give me that BS either
- all mages aren't really good at bossing due to lower dpm than other classes (ok, good mobbing, fine)
- however, bishop support is completely useless: best example is PB. No one needs heal because of pot spam, and wheels are cheap if you die. Other classes have even better support skills (holy shell vs. smokescreen? for wheeling; holy shell vs binding darkness in general?; soulstone?). Finally, it's so easy to do that kind of boss without a bishop, people solo most with ease (other than empress).

If we don't have many good support skills, and our dpm is bad, What are we good for? (in terms of bossing*)

I think that after our Genesis got it's cooldown, It intimidated Bishops to be independent in general.

When people say that Bishops have low damage, small attack range, low dps, and so on,
Yes they are true, but they are also demeaning us to only a "Support Class" the more you guys emphasize this.

I think this idea has spread so much into Mapler's minds that it is ingrained that Bishops are plain weak and are only useful for their Support skills

It is because of this idea that both Non-Bishops and Bishops alike abuse this idea to their own benefits
Some people abuse bishops by telling them they can't attack well and make them stay on a rope and just buffing (Giving them more Exp)
While Bishops abuse others by staying on a rope and being lazy and make the attackers do all the work.

I think that the party play zones (Like LHC), are truly causing this to happen is because of these area that causes HSers to be truly abusive since a leeching HSer increases the Exp by 1.5x plus the +50% party exp for being in the party in general

Take the Party Play Zones out and all party members must attack to maintain good Exp. Or Nexon should lower the exp gain per member

[quote=MagiBombchu]I honestly can't feel much empathy for Bishops these days.

Far too many of them have gotten away with hanging on a rope, being afk. No other class could do that. Anyone else could get kicked for disconnecting, but the bishop got 30 minutes? That's messed up, admit it.[/quote]

Uhm, they deserve that right 100%. In every MMO in existence, the healer is treasured more than anyone else. In Maple, they messed up and made healing/buffs utterly useless and put everyone onto the path of "LOL TAKE EXTREMELY HIGH DMG & A LOT OF NX AND SOLO EVERYTHING!" so, to make up for the destruction of Bishops, they were given Holy Symbol. Instead of healing, their job is to follow everyone around and cast HS for life. It's sad, but it's true, and that's what MapleStory has amounted to. And now, Nexon has removed the role of the Bishop once again.

Yeah, yeah. We've all heard it. "BISHOPS CAN DOOR, REZ, HEAL, ETC. AND PHANTOMS CAN'T." Yeah, well, where is Rez, Door, Heal, AB, etc. even useful? In no boss runs do you need Holy Symbol. Almost every boss has a map in which you can respawn, making Rez useless. Healing is garbage because of Seduction, Zombify, etc. So, give it a break.

Bishops need some form of a buff. It's vital at this point. Support classes serve no point in Maple Story anymore.

Yes, Bishops can also do a massive amount of damage when they're nicely funded, however, isn't the point of them to be support? Why not enhance their supporting abilities?

met a bishop yesterday, lvl 130 ish~ doing 50k+ dmg per line with her angel ray - amounting to total dmg of 160k approximately per hit (with my lvl128 BaM, I can only hit 12k ish ....T.T sigh..). Now that is FAR better than any phantom i've met so far (of course, she may be well-funded and surely there may be stronger phantoms out there). But my point is, bishops are certainly not to be considered as buffers only, but rather attackers with buffers as a bonus - too good? xD

I want your milk <3

Oh yah, buff pl0x <3

Edit: I think removal genesis CD is needed xD I'd like to see old maple ks machine vs new maple ks machine <3

I Completely disagree with bishops being useless, my bishop hits 300k with one arrow. i can heal take dmg and dish it as well as buff. Phantoms can max only give 2 of the buffs i can, and even then its either all my strong one vs 2 of thiers. And honestly if your going to argue, that bishops just hang on a rope, remember the time when you were on the rope will a bishop leeched you? i do. and i did. We are nerfed, yes.... but we are not dead. We only have 2.5 decent attacks, AR, and SR, and gen but with the cool down its not really applicable. Support class we may be.... but never shall we give up BISHOP PRIDE!

@lulu256 Support doesn't equal muling. Get that through your skull first of all. There's nothing a rope hanger can do that a mule can't. A REAL Bishop will actually help the party out by healing or attacking. As I've said before, unless you have people carrying your weight OR a godly person you shouldn't be leeching. I'd rather have a Phantom who fights than a rope hanger. When I see a Bishop I usually see one rope hanging, but when I DO see one and I'm in a party without one I expect them to fight just like the rest of us. Also, I do have a Bishop. 135 without AR(Which is the reason I only go on to do 2x Hilla's).

By joining a party, I expect you to contribute just as much as everyone else. Which means buffing(Like everyone with a party buff has to do) AND attacking. The only reason SOME people give Bishops the leech treatment is due to HS; without it Bishops wouldn't get leeched. If I have to put up with a Bishop like that for HS? Fine, but the second someone who's willing to be active comes along that rope hanger is gone. Nobody puts up with leeches otherwise, I don't give Bishops an exception.

Also, pot burning... LHC... Really? Because I do just fine with a Jr Boogie, Magic Guard up and very little potion consumption. You don't see other classes who burn MP pots(And probably HP pots) complaining, do you? Why do Bishops, YET AGAIN, get special treatment? If the class was made for SUPPORT and not MULING, you should be SUPPORTING. Honestly, you're picking the good part of the support excuse(We do bad damage, we have good party skills) and then leaving the other part(Since we support we should be active, not mule/leech). You can't do that.

[quote=Tricks122]No class should be rope hanging unless someone godly is selling leech. Again, that's like saying a pre-Revamp Buccaneer would've been allowed to leech because they had bad damage and one party skill(SI). Bishops may be geared more towards support, but they clearly have offensive abilities which they SHOULD be using. Would you let low levels leech in your party because they don't contribute much? Oh, but that's different because Bishops have a skill that directly influences your exp no matter your funding. Yea, that's totally fair.

Saying they should have 'less stress' by having to attack is a poor excuse. Anyone could use less stress. The only reason Bishops used to/do get special treatment is because of HS, which is becoming more obsolete because of Phantoms. Rope hangers are getting pushed out because Phantoms can do their role while providing damage, which helps training... unless you have some godly members who solo a whole LHC map, but that isn't too common for the average LHC party. Bishops don't deserve any special treatment, but you seem to be willing to give them one purely because of HS.[/quote]

Since bishops can't contribute much in the first place and the reason why one of them might be in your party is because of their buffs, then why can't you just let them buff you? Surely the first thing you think of when you see a bishop is not "ooo looks like he/she would have great damage!", but rather "ooooo look, more exp for us!". If that's not the case for you, then you would definitely make a great bishop, and you should go ahead and make one. If a bishop wants to help out with training, then fine. If not, then fine. Their damage isn't the reason why they're in the party in the first place, but its rather a little tiny bonus that comes with the HS "package". By adding a bishop to a party for extra exp and then demanding that he/she contributes in helping out with 1% of the work and therefore burning tons of pots, then you really are asking too much for this class, which was made for support.

@TroiSky: i know it raises to four jon just cause i don't log on as much due to school means i lost half my sanity

nexon should make it six if they won't give us the support buff i been wanting for sooo long now
i wanna hit a piller of numbers if i can't get OP as eff support skills

[quote=JessiePie]@Lolinyaa: yes but most most people dont really have an entire other account with a bishop on it
and if you were to replace me that way, what would be the point? unless ofcourse if your trying to maybe level up that bishop which most ppl rlly dont[/quote]

So your sole excuse is that because of your buffs you shouldn't need to attack/do anything but buff? My party doesn't need any excuse to replace me other than "Oh look a class with better DPS!", but they don't because I actually attack unlike some people. Rope hanging isn't supporting; it's leeching. There's a big difference.

If the party you're in doesn't need damage you clearly have an organized party pulling your weight for you. Most random LHC parties don't have someone who can solo the map, so people who play Bishops in those parties should be attacking. In all honesty, I was in a party with a 19x Aran who could solo the whole BW map, should I just leech because they can do without me? Yea, those parties don't come along often. You've clearly got organized, FUNDED parties.

When did I say Bishops are lazy? I'm saying no class should be leeching, Bishops included. But some people like you seem to think you're allowed to buff and leech, which no other class is allowed to do. Then you use the fact you're a support as an excuse but all you're doing is muling, refusing to properly support your party with every skill you have. If you were a mule it'd be the EXACT same situation, the Bishop does nothing but buff every time it runs out.

I only accept attacking Bishops/Phantoms, and I don't have trouble finding one of the two who's willing to do it. Even if the damage is poor, they'll still attack. I'd rather have a mule than you in my party; at least they're contributing instead of leeching. The only reason Bishops get away with leeching is because of HS(Let's be honest, if you didn't have that NOBODY would let you leech), if you take that skill away nobody really cares about your other skills since they don't have a huge impact. That's the sole reason. Take any other class, go to an average party and ask to leech while you buff; good luck finding an average party letting you do that.

@JessiePie it would be a better solution to hs since i wouldn't be "afk" on the bishop since id be right there training, thats really the only difference i know of. i personally dont have a mule bishop account because i don't see the point but i know a few people who do. i used that example to show that you acting as a mule bishop can be easily replaced by another which would have less of a chance of going afk, or even a willing attacking bishop

[quote=JessiePie]@Tricks122: ok first of all, rope hanging is supporting. your getting our exp buff, done. and stop saying that all i am is a mule, if i was a mule no one would be getting my hs and there fore i wouldn even be in the party. Sure our job as a support class is easy but it DOES contribute even if were not attacking
and when your saying that every bit of dmg helps, ik it does but the partys im in dont need it
and stop complaining that bishops r just lazy people. if partys only accepted bishops that would attack a bet like most of us would just be in hene hanging out[/quote]
you seem to be missing part of it. i could replace you easily if you are being a rope mule with my own, all it would cost me is a few seconds to press 1 key on a second computer to get hs and bless. i would assume the party would prefer this type of mule bishop to you, since the person is being active on at least 1 character. and from what i seen most bishops are lazy, ive met maybe 10 that aren't, and know 2 "godly" ones.

@JessiePie If you can't survive you shouldn't be there. Not using Magic Guard or large pot burn is no excuse since it's common for every other class to burn many potions, barring draining skills.

And yes, I actually DO know how many people you'd be healing. I play a Bishop that way(While also attacking) and you can ignore some classes since they have drains. I don't leech like it was apparently intended to. And depending on the party AR can help, if you don't have godly people it DOES help. Every bit of damage helps, and Angel Ray isn't like cat scratches if you have some funded and a decent level AR.

In boss runs there's no leeching(Not in serious ones anyway). I never said a Bishop was being relied on; I'm saying why do Bishops get to be an exception? Any other class has to buff and attack, but you're saying that support is a Bishop's role, but you rope hang like a buff mule(Which isn't supporting). Your logic is flawed; your class is for support, but you say you don't do it because your parties don't need you to, so you get free exp.

You're picking the part of the argument that only benefits you and saying the rest doesn't exist. That's not how it works. Want to support? Heal is a support skill, use it. Chip away a bit of health with AR. Want to rope hang? Then all you are is a mule, which no class was intended to be, and no class SHOULD be doing.

[quote=JessiePie]But heres the difference that you already accually explained, OTHER CLASSES CAN ATTACK HIGHER , an archer with there SE can buff but they should attack because
1.all of them (xcept mm, although MMs do attack high) have a skill where they shoot a crap load of arrows in a short period of time
2.They attack higher then us

Its just natural for us to leech, and accually if the party can survive if that person is leeching, im perfectly fine with a low level leeching[/quote]

You support better than anyone, so why should you just be used as a buff mule? Yes, other classes can attack higher, but that doesn't mean if you don't fund your Bishop you can't contribute. Fundings=damage, class doesn't matter.

If it's natural for you to leech then why were you given attack skills, Heal and Dispell? Because those are skills that require you to be active, and while Dispell isn't used while training why should you be exempt from doing 'what your class was meant to do'? I don't allow anyone to leech in any party I lead because it promotes bad habits; why should someone gain exp for nothing?

So exactly what is your excuse for not running around healing? Saying it's 'natural' for you to leech is a poor argument, you wouldn't be given AR if you were meant to leech. If you're going to support, support to the fullest. If you're going to attack, do the same. You don't get to pick the support excuse if you're not going to actually support(Being a buff mule doesn't count; any MULE can do that). I mean really... I don't see how your argument stands when you're saying all you can do is mule when ANY 121+ Bishop mule can do EXACTLY what you do, which means it's obviously not intended for what you to do since a mule is NEVER better than someone actually playing the class.

[quote=JessiePie]Well, we ussually cant do high dmg, i rlly dont care what anyone thinks we just have a low dmg rate. and because of that we ussually do just hang on a rope and buff. if people just want use for our smexxi Hs and adv Bless why should we attack when were already giving them what they want.if bishops were meant to attack they would give them
-a faster skill
- more hits in Ar, like alot
-higher dmg rate

and if they cant do that, then i suggest we get no cd gen
GG[/quote]

So you're perfectly fine with lower levels with bad damage leeching? Oh, but because you buff you can leech and you're the only class with a buff that give exp it's fine. Silly me, I mean Archers can obviously leech if they provide SE, right? Oh no, because that actually relies on how good your party is so you need to attack to actually contribute.

If you're going to say "We were meant to support, we have bad attacks!", fine, run around Healing people and actually supporting them. Because that's obviously what you were 'meant to do' if you were given a party heal skill. I'm sorry, but you can't use the excuse that "We were meant for support!" so you aren't supposed to attack, and then you don't support as well as you could. The reason they don't give Bishops better attacks is for balance by the way, if they made you comparable to another offensive class they'd need to nerf your support skills. And we all know how that would go.

If you use the fact that you're a weak class as an excuse, then actively support your party instead of being a buff mule(Which any class with a party skill can do). If you don't want to actively support your party with all your party skills, then attack(Which any class can also do while buffing).

Good Game yourself.

[quote=lulu256]ok, that was a bad example. i concede your point. Of course bishops should be prepared for whatever they're doing with their parties. I'm still totally ok with bishops hanging on a rope doing nothing, however. Bishops are usually built for support, not attack. Even if they could survive when they help out, they usually dont contribute that much anyways with their kind of build. If the bishop is capable, then of course they should help out, and they would know it too. I'd rather just give the bishop less stress by letting them hang on their rope if they're doing a good job already. The only thing is that when the bishop is allowed to hang on the rope, he/she would still have to come off the rope to buff.[/quote]

No class should be rope hanging unless someone godly is selling leech. Again, that's like saying a pre-Revamp Buccaneer would've been allowed to leech because they had bad damage and one party skill(SI). Bishops may be geared more towards support, but they clearly have offensive abilities which they SHOULD be using. Would you let low levels leech in your party because they don't contribute much? Oh, but that's different because Bishops have a skill that directly influences your exp no matter your funding. Yea, that's totally fair.

Saying they should have 'less stress' by having to attack is a poor excuse. Anyone could use less stress. The only reason Bishops used to/do get special treatment is because of HS, which is becoming more obsolete because of Phantoms. Rope hangers are getting pushed out because Phantoms can do their role while providing damage, which helps training... unless you have some godly members who solo a whole LHC map, but that isn't too common for the average LHC party. Bishops don't deserve any special treatment, but you seem to be willing to give them one purely because of HS.