General

@Hydraxide: Yea. Cherrytigers and Xpose managed to get there without spending real life money. But unfortunately it was a different game when they funded themselves. That is no longer possible unless you have no life and can afford to spend 10+hours a day abusing events

@Lecarde

Yeah I just cry in my corner when I see that damage. It is literally impossible to get to that level of funding without spending real money, and lots of it. There's a difference between being very funded (cap) and then being THAT funded. And that stacked, because let's be real those wallets have to be pretty fat.

@Hydraxide: That is insane. I thought I was doing good cause I can hit 12mil lines on PB

[quote=minchuzuk3]@Hydraxide: Someone just went on a tantrum lmao. Clearly you have issues, so i'll just let you handle them. [/quote]

If your style of debate is to constantly attack my character instead of addressing any of the issues I bring up, then I'm done here. Some people should never reproduce, it'd lower the overall intelligence of society. You would be one of them.

@Hydraxide: Someone just went on a tantrum lmao. Clearly you have issues, so i'll just let you handle them.

[quote=minchuzuk3]@Hydraxide: Gosh It's like i'm arguing with a wall, w/e your ego is too big.[/quote]

MY EGO? LOL DUDE YOU CAN'T EVEN DECIDE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ARGUE. You can't even form a cohesive point because you've been trying to switch it from MC > PB to DB > Shad, what's next, red > blue? You post that DBs are the better class (which is verbatim), but then when I quote you then you say you were saying PB > Shad?

This is what happens when kids try to debate without actually knowing how to. Figure out what your point is, and identify your premises. You don't have either.

@Hydraxide: Gosh It's like i'm arguing with a wall, w/e your ego is too big.

@Lecarde Yeah there are plenty of ridiculously strong, low key shads. I guess its okay to share since he quit but BladeBlood in my world was hitting 40m on regular mobs which meant he'd be capping at most bosses, although cVel and hmag are a problem. Since my world is so small, I'm willing to bet the bigger worlds have way more people like him.

@Hydraxide: I know that undexme could easily hit cap, but he also plays a NL so I didn't really take him into consideration But yea apparently GMS players are stronger than I remember haha

@Lecarde I don't remember the exact math but its about 70 to 80 mil. And there are several GMS thieves that can hit cap on MC and ME like @undexme, just not on bosses with PDR like cVel or Hmag. And interesting little fact, its actually easier to cap on ME than MC because of the hyper, so its not actually as bad as they say. And really for top end Shads ME is their bread and butter so talking about MC should be in the context of setting up for ME. As for the other guy, I just can't stand people that just state their wrong opinions like its a fact, even when all the math says otherwise. Apparently its becoming a trend that people's feelings > math.

@Hydraxide: Don't worry about him. Let him think his class is stronger than Shads simply because it attacks faster.

Really though how many GMS shads are hitting close to max on MC anyway? From my understanding that move really isn't all that great until you are hitting more than 80mil lines on it

[quote=minchuzuk3]@Hydraxide: What? Obviously if their main 1v1 ability is better than they're the stronger class, boss wise. You drunk man go home. Not to mention the Mesos explosion 30 sec cooldown now in KMST.[/quote]

Really? First you compare their class as a whole and say DBs are better, and now that I point out Shads are using MC+ME as their MAIN BOSSING MOVES, you flip it around again. Dude, you were wrong, DBs are not the better class, just accept it and move on instead of trying to justify yourself. ME+MC > PB, and shads > DBs as far as 1v1 bossing goes. This is a fact. Its like some people can't accept that they made a mistake.

@Hydraxide: What? Obviously if their main 1v1 ability is better than they're the stronger class, boss wise. You drunk man go home. Not to mention the Mesos explosion 30 sec cooldown now in KMST.

[quote=minchuzuk3]@Hydraxide: Bro I'm comparing the two skills PB and MC.....PB is alot faster than MC, which means if both classes had the same cap PB would do more damage lol. I think you like didn't read or something.

[b]First post:[/b]
I feel like if nexon were to raise the cap to be the same between all classes, Dual Blades would overpower shads with phantom blow

[b]Second post:[/b]
Only reason why shadowers are stronger atm is flip coin.

[b]Third post:[/b]
AKA if DBs could hit the same cap they'd be the stronger class.[/quote]

Nice try buddy. You can try to backtrack all you want. Unless I'm reading wrong I don't see "PB vs MC only", I read "DB > Shad as a class". Perhaps you should leave less text proof when trying to turn it on me.

@Hydraxide: Bro I'm comparing the two skills PB and MC.....PB is alot faster than MC, which means if both classes had the same cap PB would do more damage lol. I think you like didn't read or something.

[quote=minchuzuk3]@ChickenS0up AKA if DBs could hit the same cap they'd be the stronger class.[/quote]

Shads that are stronger than DBs are not relying on MC to beat DBs. In fact the real reason Shads are stronger at top level funding is because ME > PB. ME hits something like 25 times a second or something ridiculous. The only purpose of MC is to proc ME (Unless you're doing over 80m per line on MC, in which case MC is better anyway). Also your "if" scenarios bother me. Nexon deliberately gave Shads a cap. IF QT got reduced to 50 ms they'd be the best class. If Pally had a 50ms they'd be stronger. See what "if" does?

@ChickenS0up AKA if DBs could hit the same cap they'd be the stronger class.

[quote=ChickenS0up]at max attack speed: MC 95/min (630ms), PB 125/min (480ms)[/quote]

I really hope you accept the maple council position man.

at max attack speed: MC 95/min (630ms), PB 125/min (480ms)

@Kirbys: You don't get what i'm saying.... I'm explaining that if both caps were the same, PB outclasses MC by a lot. Only reason why shadowers are stronger atm is flip coin.

PB is 14 hits assumed because everyone puts the +1 hit hyper in. It however does not affect attack speed. PB is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger than MC and about 40% faster, 100% higher, 1 hit less. This is an unfair comparison because you're comparing a main 4th job attacking skill vs a secondary 3rd job skill.

@minchuzuk3 by that, I meant it's unfair that DB gets access to their hypers while shads don't when you compared them.
Either way, with or without hyper, I'm curious.
@Kirbys You seem to know your stuff so I'm going to ask. Do you know which skill is faster if we ignore all other skills and assume equal damage in these two situations:
Base skills, MC vs PB (12 hits).
With hypers, MC vs PB (14 hits).

Edit: you don't have to compare cap damage since most people won't be capping, just wanted to know the attack speed between these two skills. Could even be 1 damage.

[quote=minchuzuk3]@SunsetChaos: I don't think it's unfair since it's there...[/quote]

It wouldn't compensate anyway. Midnight carnival beats fully capping wh and bowmaster. DB can't even compete with those. I don't know why people keep talking about capping midnight carnival anyway. It's not relevant to discussion here. The difference in funding is too large for the average player that pays money. Classes should be ranked at high funding: DB > NL=Shadowers. Difference between NL and shadowers is pretty small capping.

edit:
actually, mc is slower than phantom blow by 40% (huge), still interesting how phantom blow is outclassed around 70m since it gets 1 more line.

@SunsetChaos: I don't think it's unfair since it's there...

[quote=SunsetChaos]@minchuzuk3: not too sure but others have done the calculations which you can google. If we're excluding all hypers and assuming equal damage, MC(15 hits) > PB(12 hits).
If you're going to include DB hypers, wouldn't really be fair but whatever. I think it would be more or less the same after that.According to [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2868990/2/#46271443]this[/url] MC might still be better.
Also, [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2515908/1/Phantom_Blow_vs_Midnight_Carnvial_vs_Qt_vs_Mille_Aiguilles.html]this is old (no hypers I think)[/url] but still somewhat relevant unless they've changed the skills since then.[/quote]

http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2871210/0/I_know_this_is_asked_a_lot_but.html Also not too accurate since weapon speed can't go to -1, but capping with midnight carnival > all other jobs by far. That is also taking into account shadowers have 15 hits (8 + 0.7 * 7).

Night Lord should outdamage shadowers realistically in a bossing situation assuming cap damage and the boss isn't a punching bag. An exception is when the shadower hyper skill is on, which is when they have higher dps than a night lord. Even so, it is very close. DB capping beats both by quite a margin. Maybe when range is 13m shadowers will overtake (7-8m range->40m midnight carnival, i have low % boss though).

@minchuzuk3: not too sure but others have done the calculations which you can google. If we're excluding all hypers and assuming equal damage, MC(15 hits) > PB(12 hits).
If you're going to include DB hypers, wouldn't really be fair but whatever. I think it would be more or less the same after that, I'm probably wrong. According to [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2868990/2/#46271443]this[/url] MC might still be better.
Also, [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2515908/1/Phantom_Blow_vs_Midnight_Carnvial_vs_Qt_vs_Mille_Aiguilles.html]this is old (no hypers I think)[/url] but still somewhat relevant unless they've changed the skills since then.

@SunsetChaos Isn't MC capped at 15 hits? Dual Blades get 14 hits, counting out all other on hits, DBs would be faster.

[quote=minchuzuk3]I feel like if nexon were to raise the cap to be the same between all classes, Dual Blades would overpower shads with phantom blow, since it's a lot faster than MC.[/quote]
Actually unless something's changed, MC is slightly faster (or more hits per sec) than PB so if they're doing the same damage then shad would still win. Easier to cap with PB than MC though, obvious since we're comparing a 3rd job skill to 4th job. Let's not forget that shads would and should be using ME as well instead of just spamming MC.

But even if all the other classes get 100m cap, shads would still be capping higher by another 50m because of hyper.

I feel like if nexon were to raise the cap to be the same between all classes, Dual Blades would overpower shads with phantom blow, since it's a lot faster than MC.

@Evenings: Yeah, they changed that with RED update.

[quote=Klytta]@Evenings DB like cannoneer does infact share it's CS inventory with all other adventurers. It was part of a update long ago. So yes it is a full on adventurer.[/quote]

oh cool i might make one then, if i remember correctly they use to have their own cs inventory so that's cool

@Evenings DB like cannoneer does infact share it's CS inventory with all other adventurers. It was part of a update long ago. So yes it is a full on adventurer.

@WhoaMomma1: The real question is do you just have one flavor or do you man up and make it into the most flamboyant rainbow of flavors possible?

[quote=AntiSenpai]You need to go to the store, buy the new Mango Fanta soda, put it in your freezer for errr two hours, get a big cup and pour you a cup of that homemade Mango flavored Fanta soda slushie.[/quote]

Yeah no, I'd just go 7/11 for Slushies..

Does Dual Blade even count as an explorer thief? he doesn't share the CS shop with any other explorer so does he count as one?

[quote=quil]good post on shad but for
NW: high attack speed due to ability to pass animation, claws are expensive highest DPM thief
NL: visually higher damage than NW and increased drop and exp rate claws are expencive
DB: High mobility and simliar cost to Shad for dmaage[/quote]

Not trying to put you down, but this was only about Explorer thieves.

Also, Dual Blade and Shadower are leagues away in cost of funding.

[quote=DawnEmperor]Shad: actually tanky and can survive a couple hits, Shield hard to come by. Deals most damage for Poor-Alot lot of funds
NL: super squishy, stars/claws are really expensive. Costs alot of money to outdamage shads with the same amount
DB: same as NL except can dodge alot more.[/quote]
good post on shad but for
NW: high attack speed due to ability to pass animation, claws are expensive highest DPM thief
NL: visually higher damage than NW and increased drop and exp rate claws are expencive
DB: High mobility and simliar cost to Shad for dmaage

Who is this "Dual Blade" class you guys keep talking about?

[quote=WhoaMomma1]Quit comparing, not like you're gonna change jobs or some sort.. As for funding gl all Thief gear is expensive who gives a crap, you're not gonna hit cap, scrub. So keep dreaming[/quote]

You need to go to the store, buy the new Mango Fanta soda, put it in your freezer for errr two hours, get a big cup and pour you a cup of that homemade Mango flavored Fanta soda slushie.

Quit comparing, not like you're gonna change jobs or some sort.. As for funding gl all Thief gear is expensive who gives a crap, you're not gonna hit cap, scrub. So keep dreaming

Let me ask you this. When was the last time Shadower got nerfed?
/thread

Seriousness, all I can remember is losing some skills but that doesn't count as a nerf since we actually gained more from the patch. Nothing but revamps and buffs. Probably the most balanced class in the game imo.

@Klytta: Lol, yeah I tend to do this. ^^

@AntiSenpai Wall of text attack was used... It's super-effective.

Got Ninja'd by @AntiSenpai
Shadower
Pros: High damage dealer at lower ranges and incredibly tanky with the skill Meso Shield. It's mobbing would be no.2 with moves like Boomerang Step that deal good damage. Class is great for unfunded players or players that plan to invest a crap ton of money to hit 110mil per line.
Cons: Though not slow, it is the slowest of the 3 thieves. It lacks many lines unless you get to the higher ranges. Slowest attack speed compared to the other 2 explorer thieves. Mediocre in the medium to high funding but does extremely good in the Extreme funding and low funding.

Night Lord
Pros: Great mobber in all stages of its job. Showdown gives 40% exp boost and drop which help a lot in terms of farming or levelling. It is a great long range class which can do Gollux extremely easily at a low range. It has good mobility and a lot of lines! It has good avoidability which compensates for lower hp. This class does well in the Medium funding and decent lines
Cons: Weak at low ranges and can be mediocre in extremely high ranges. HP is low which forces potion usage. Claws are the most expensive weapon. Night Lords tend to fall off in terms of damage near the cap.

Dual Blade
Pros: Pretty fun in my opinion because of the wide variety of skills it has. The best mobility out of the 3 because of skills like Blade Ascension. Excels in high funding and high ranges. Mobbing is decent with a different variety of skills to use to mob. They would come under 2nd or 3rd best in mobbing capabilities. A huge amount of lines with moves like Phantom blow and has the highest attack speed or similar to NL. You pretty much have 100% crit as well.
Cons: Bad at lower ranges, mediocre at medium ranges but great at high ranges. You basically need to buy 2 separate weapons, a dagger and a katara. Both need scrolling and cubing. Low % damage on skills so you need a high range to be hitting high numbers per line, you will feel weak because of how low your damage is because of the skill's damage %. HP is a concern but like NL avoidability makes up for it quite well.

Summary would be
Low funding from good to bad would be: Shadower -> Night Lord -> Dual Blade
Capping funding from good to bad would be: Shadower -> Dual Blade -> Night Lord
Survivability from good to bad: Shadower -> Night Lord and Dualblade (pretty much the same, both low HP and avoidability)
Mobbing would be: Night Lord -> Dual Blade or Shadower

Shadower would be best in Capping strength because of their unique cap of 110-125mil per line and meso explosion of like 20 lines
In normal capping strength would be Dual Blade with their insane attack speed
Night Lord excels in the Medium to High funding

I wish I saved my page of text covering this a while ago...

Going to assume you mean at 4th job.

Shadower - Takes less damage from regular mobs, cannot be 1/1 at bosses, high survivability in most situations (most bosses do % damage now, so everything is usually on an even playing field when it comes to survivability at bosses)

Training wise they're pretty good, all you need to do is hit 5mils per line with Savage Blow and you can just move left and right while standing in the middle of SDH. Training as a Shadower is pretty boring though.

Funding wise, this class takes the least amount of funds to do decent with, when I say decent I mean you can usually 1 hit mobs and do okay bosses a dew minutes. Daggers are pretty cheap and easy to come by, Dragon Khanjar is expensive, but then you can use the wrist guard thing secondary and get the same effect besides the 15 attack and style points. Another point is that with god funds, you can have one of the strongest characters in GMS, Shadower's damage cap is 2x regular cap (100 mils) and if you're able to hit those numbers with MC or ME, then nothing in this game will ever be a challenge.

Damage wise, Shadower is a beast. Has high % on attacks and has buffs that pile on more attack. Also, damage cap is 100mil per line, assassinate is 120mil.

Bossing wise, Shadower is again a top contender, being able to hit high numbers with a lower range allows you to do higher level bosses sooner than most classes, also as a Shadower I've always had lower times in ranked Dojo than when I was a NL or DB (All capping)

Dual Blade - Very fun character but demands you to have a ton of funds to be able to have the full experience. Unlike Shadower, this class is based off of attack speed and high avoid, so even though this class hits very fast its damage % is rather low.

Training wise they require more attention, you can't just stand in the middle and attack, with DB you need to move around the map, I personally use blade fury and bloody storm to get around the map quickly and clear out mobs around me.

Funding wise, to have a decent range this class requires the most funding over Shadower or Night Lord. You'll have to make two weapons, perfection will usually run you easily over 10bil, but it can usually be handmade with 5-7bil per weapon. (15% spell traced on trace fever OP) You can expect to spend 2x more than you would on a Shadower to get half the damage.

Damage wise, it's usually going to be pretty low and it's rather off putting if you come from a power house like Shadower to see the damage change so much. Though people usually forget the attack speed, the attack speed + final cut + the PDR on skills is actually not that bad. I prefer playing Dual Blade over Shadower in most cases, the only thing I miss is the damage.

Bossing wise, they're not bad at all (if you have the funds) Mirror Target is heavily abused in almost all bossing scenarios. (Do not use a familiar while using clone!) Asura is nice as well, great for burst damage or just getting in a ton of damage, the cool down has recently been lowered so you can use it more now! ^^ (If you're going to use Asura on a boss that has DR, do not use Blade Clone, you'll be ded, so ded.) As mentioned before, Dual Blade's skills have PDR with them, so you'll be able to hit bosses a bit harder than other classes (Bosses that have high defense).

Night Lord - Completely different than the other two, this class is pretty well rounded with bossing and training.

Training wise, this is the best over Shadower and Dual Blade, Showdown is OP. Gives 40% extra exp per kill and with the help of Marks of Assassin you don't really have to ever move from the middle.

Funding wise, for decent, being able to 1 hit mobs and and do bosses decently it won't cost too much, still it cost more than a Shadower because claws are stupidly expensive. Secondaries are cheap to get (clean) but cost a ton when cubed (More than a Dkhan cubed, more people play NL)

Damage wise, it's in the middle, lower than Shadower but higher than Dual blade.

Bossing wise, it's pretty good. Decent damage per line, lots of lines and hits decently fast (no where near Dual Blade) Showdown and frailty curse are good for bossing too, as well as the star thing, great for mob control at gollux (Shadower has the same skill, Dual Blade doesn't though)

My personal preferences..

I love Shadower the most but Dual Blade is more enjoyable to play constantly, Night Lord is same as Shadower, but I never really liked playing Night Lord, everything seemed too easy.

Night Lord is great at two things, leveling and farming.

Shadower is great for damage, having the potential to have god damage and for it's easy mode bossing.

Dual Blade is great for it's playstyle, it's not just using one or two skills, you can use almost all of it's skills in multiple situations, and it's fun to boss with, hell even to train it's more enjoyable, more interactive than Shadower and Night Lord. The only catch is that you need to be able to throw a ton of funds at this class to really enjoy it.

If you're like me and job change around a ton and have perfected weapons/secondaries for all three of these classes and want to know when each class gets better than the other it's like this~

Night lord to level 200 > Shadower till around 3 mil range > Dual Blade till 6mil range > Shadower > Life

That would be my plan, of course there'd be many factors in this, buttt this is what I am currently going for atm, currently in Dual Blade phase.

Hope I helped, if anyone feels that I missed something or I said something wrong, feel free to correct me. ^^ (I'm always looking to learn more)

Shad > All other thiefs mainly because its easier to hit high damage with less funds. Little slow though. At 138 w/ 42k range I can solo zak <1 min

Shad: actually tanky and can survive a couple hits, Shield hard to come by. Deals most damage for Poor-Alot lot of funds
NL: super squishy, stars/claws are really expensive. Costs alot of money to outdamage shads with the same amount
DB: same as NL except can dodge alot more.