General

@kirbyhyper: well its true, the difference is in the mana savings. Still, CL upgraded has much more damage, and FO is better for stopping mobs, combining them is the best option

[quote=joda1000]Frozen orb not hitting enough times per second? what do you want for it to hit 1k per second? it already hits around 30-40 times[/quote]He's likely going off of a non-glitched version, which hits every 210 ms (ie just under 5 times per second).

At that hit speed the damage from spamming it is only marginally better than just spamming Chain Lightning (~2% more damage with CL and FO hypers, iirc). Buffing Chain Lightning but not Frozen Orb will make Frozen Orb worsen your damage the more you use it.

[quote=JVIaplevoyager]That's cool and all, but they overlooked all of the other flaws we have apart from damage. Like chain lightning's puny chaining/casting range and it's crappy mob count. Also, frozen orb's long delay and not enough hits per second to make it a powerful skill + the unecessary cooldown. We also have near useless skills such as thunderstorm and for god's sakes, replace freezing breath with something better (attacking skill or buff) or AT LEAST make it a viable bind for solo play.

However, the job right now is not as bad as people are making it to be. There's several jobs right now that are far worse than I/L..

Nexon needs to understand that the problem we have right now can't be solved by just buffing up our damage. We need new skills, less delay times, better casting ranges etc. etc.[/quote]

Frozen orb not hitting enough times per second? what do you want for it to hit 1k per second? it already hits around 30-40 times

@GoXDS: That was another thing. I remember not factoring Blizzard at all because of people in kms saying that Frozen Orb ticks won't proc it (I'd imagine it would've had something to do with dr)

@kirbyhyper: oh wait right. late at night and forgot to count from last tick xP but FO should still have much more DPS than CL assuming properly working Blizzard

@GoXDS: Yeah I've noticed the whole thing with DR and Chilling Step but from what I can tell it's only so if they are set before a boss casts it. Either way it's still annoying, unreliable and most likely not even worth mentioning in regards to skill usefulness, and I would still drop a Frozen Orb to start up stacks over trying for Chilling Step any day.

As far as 13 seconds goes I time it from the last tick of the skill, which would be ~5.35 seconds after casting (startup+duration).

[quote=SorryJustAsking]Regarding Frozen Breath. What if we made it an "installment?" Cast the skill, dragon appears and freezes the whatever for 20 seconds while we're able to move around.[/quote]
I really like how frozen breath works right now. It last 25 seconds with only a 120 cd plus lowers enemys defense and also makes us invincible. Only changes I would make are have the lowered defense be 30% for both phy/magic attacks and make the cd 120 at all skill levels. The real problem is its a great party skill but the game is more about soloing now. If they added bosses that could not be killed solo and didn't make them immune to bind it become more useful. Heck maybe even make bosses/pq where you need a binder to succeed.

@kirbyhyper: what of my FO dmg calcs? o_o without factoring Blizzard, FO and CL are pretty much even, too (2770%/s vs CL's 2769.6%)
Chilling Steps isn't as fast as FO at stacking but not like you use that first so not a problem, really. problem is some bosses aren't reachable with it. and seems to trigger DR.........if new boost is hard 40% rather than 40% total (we have enough from AA and Amp unless Amp is just visual %total while acting as %matk or multiplier...), then CL might be the main source of dmg again. and why 13s? stacks seemed to fade much sooner than 13 seconds from what I remember when FO's cd wasn't stable.
and I wouldn't say it's fair to say it's a one skill class when there's plenty of other classes that are actually 1 skill. there aren't too many classes that use more (especially if we exclude BaM and Aran and the like who are forced to combo into Hyper)

@mark24: It kinda was historically speaking. You had one skill per advancement that virtually overshadows everything else in the arsenal. Right now that is Chain Lightning.

Frozen stacks can also be done with Chilling Step. Other than that, once you get to 5 you're basically only using ice attacks to refresh ice counters, ie once every 8 seconds (13 if it's Frozen Orb). If the ratio of Chain Lightnings to everything is that much, is it truly reasonable to not call this a one skill class?

I put Frozen Orb at 13 seconds and not 5 because of how its damage is holding up. As of RED I calculated a damage increase of ~2% from incorporating a maxed Frozen Orb with both damage boosting hypers. With Chain Lightning going up by >40% in power, it's definitely now going to be detrimental to dps (I am assuming you can maintain counters). Similar things can be said about Blizzard unless they fixed its proc rate again as both times I tested it, the FA effect was substantially lower than from when I calculated (ie I actually thought I'd see a proc on 60% of Chain Lightnings).

@GoXDS: Yeah, before Big Bang, it was 2 mobs for the first 6 levels, then 3 for the next 6, going up to 6 mobs.

@kirbyhyper: well, I mean when 4th Job was just released. though I vaguely recall 6 mobs at one point, that's far gone. unless I'm remembering wrong for early release as well cause I never got to 4th Job back then
to you and to @JVIaplevoyager FO is actually I/L's main source of DPS. it lasts as long as its cd (and thus necessitating the cd or else you'd have more than 1 FO at a time. it was a problem before since cd wasn't properly sync'ed) and has a 1.35s delay. so 3.65s of hits at 210ms per hit. that's 17 hits at 220% with Blizzard adding 10.2 hits. that's 5984% in a cast time of 1.35s, so 4432%/s. compared to CL's (7*273% + 0.6*220%)/0.69ms = 2960.9%/s. also, CL's range is decent. Mages at least were mid-long range rather than long range and afaik, it's slightly longer than Paralyze's. I'll agree that TS's cast time is horrendously long and short duration are a pain but it does do a lot of dmg (single target is 430% and if its attack speed is 1s [it's faster than Elquines at least], 87s*430/1s = 37410% for a cost delay of 2.73s, or 13703%/s but no crits on that)

[quote=kirbyhyper]@mark24: Pretty much.

They're sort of driving down the point of I/L being a one skill class even further.[/quote]

No they aren't first of all it's not a one skill class. second of all you need frozen stacks for chain lightning to do optimal damage. il mage uses blizzard for final attack effect, and frost orb for dps and frozen stacks.

@mark24: Pretty much.

They're sort of driving down the point of I/L being a one skill class even further.

[quote=kirbyhyper]CL hit 6 mobs before Big Bang.

And while this is nice and dandy (yay, higher numbers) I don't see why the decision was just to boost Chain Lightning damage. I know we've essentially been a one skill class this whole time but it still doesn't really help the appeal.[/quote]

chain lightning is an amazing skill. the problem is frost orb weak animation, cd, and cast time, the 170 terrible hyper,and the cool ice dragon being useless. A lot of other things could be worked on but those are the main issues.

[quote=GoXDS]@Momijii well, CL's mob count was always wonky. iirc, 3 mobs way back in the day? and never bothered me since most maps didn't have mob counts of consistent 6+ and I wiped the map fast enough anyways.[/quote]CL hit 6 mobs before Big Bang.

And while this is nice and dandy (yay, higher numbers) I don't see why the decision was just to boost Chain Lightning damage. I know we've essentially been a one skill class this whole time but it still doesn't really help the appeal.

[quote=JVIaplevoyager]That's cool and all, but they overlooked all of the other flaws we have apart from damage. Like chain lightning's puny chaining/casting range and it's crappy mob count. Also, frozen orb's long delay and not enough hits per second to make it a powerful skill + the unecessary cooldown. We also have near useless skills such as thunderstorm and for god's sakes, replace freezing breath with something better (attacking skill or buff) or AT LEAST make it a viable bind for solo play.

However, the job right now is not as bad as people are making it to be. There's several jobs right now that are far worse than I/L..

Nexon needs to understand that the problem we have right now can't be solved by just buffing up our damage. We need new skills, less delay times, better casting ranges etc. etc.[/quote]

Oh cry me a river. How about we take your Elemental Ignore away, oh wait...

Anyways I've been meaning to hop on my old I/L again because I miss it lots. This gives me a lot of incentive. Although I think they sholuld have just super buffed frozen Orb to crazy amounts so that they are a high DPS class while F/P stays a high DPM class.

[quote=JVIaplevoyager]That's cool and all, but they overlooked all of the other flaws we have apart from damage. Like chain lightning's puny chaining/casting range and it's crappy mob count. Also, frozen orb's long delay and not enough hits per second to make it a powerful skill + the unecessary cooldown. We also have near useless skills such as thunderstorm and for god's sakes, replace freezing breath with something better (attacking skill or buff) or AT LEAST make it a viable bind for solo play.

However, the job right now is not as bad as people are making it to be. There's several jobs right now that are far worse than I/L..

Nexon needs to understand that the problem we have right now can't be solved by just buffing up our damage. We need new skills, less delay times, better casting ranges etc. etc.[/quote]

Regarding Frozen Breath. What if we made it an "installment?" Cast the skill, dragon appears and freezes the whatever for 20 seconds while we're able to move around.

[quote=JVIaplevoyager]That's cool and all, but they overlooked all of the other flaws we have apart from damage. Like chain lightning's puny chaining/casting range and it's crappy mob count. Also, frozen orb's long delay and not enough hits per second to make it a powerful skill + the unecessary cooldown. We also have near useless skills such as thunderstorm and for god's sakes, replace freezing breath with something better (attacking skill or buff) or AT LEAST make it a viable bind for solo play.

However, the job right now is not as bad as people are making it to be. There's several jobs right now that are far worse than I/L..

Nexon needs to understand that the problem we have right now can't be solved by just buffing up our damage. We need new skills, less delay times, better casting ranges etc. etc.[/quote]

I think I listed most of the issues besides damage but if they just straight buffed damage hardcore I wouldn't be complaining.

That's cool and all, but they overlooked all of the other flaws we have apart from damage. Like chain lightning's puny chaining/casting range and it's crappy mob count. Also, frozen orb's long delay and not enough hits per second to make it a powerful skill + the unecessary cooldown. We also have near useless skills such as thunderstorm and for god's sakes, replace freezing breath with something better (attacking skill or buff) or AT LEAST make it a viable bind for solo play.

However, the job right now is not as bad as people are making it to be. There's several jobs right now that are far worse than I/L..

Nexon needs to understand that the problem we have right now can't be solved by just buffing up our damage. We need new skills, less delay times, better casting ranges etc. etc.

[quote=grawp77]I read all the skills changes for all classes and i/L is the biggest one. 40% extra damage thats amazing.
That just proof how screwed we are right now[/quote]

40% damage from 5 stacks of frozen and chain lightning goes 273% 6x to 300% 6x. Not sure how anyone can say the class isn't bad right now when it's getting a buff like that. Damage isn't even the only problem it has a lot of other issues as well.

The buffs to ice lightning mage on kmst are crazy. Thatd make them so much stronger... They might be one of the best classes if they actually get that buff.

I read all the skills changes for all classes and i/L is the biggest one. 40% extra damage thats amazing.
That just proof how screwed we are right now

@GoXDS: a 10-20k range difference doesn't explain the how evan completes dojo in around half the time of il mage. infinity isn't that great of a skill but at my range you can use the full duration in later stages, the early stages die fast regardless.

There is no op mage class. If anything they should all be buffed. There is a reason %int has been cheap since like forever. thieves and warriors are the ones with the op classes.

I think il mage has a ton of issues and needs a lot of it's current skills replaced/revamped. The kmst changes to chain lightning fix it's damage but thunderstorm needs to buffed, the bind needs to do damage or not be a keydown skill, ice orb needs to last longer and cast faster, infinity needs to be replaced with a 200 second+ buff or passive, chain lightning needs to chain better and hit more mobs, il hyper needs to deal more damage, deal it faster, and not be a keydown skill with an improved animation, ice aura could also use a buff.

the only major problem I see with evan is it's outdated animations, teleport(its getting fixed in kmst), and number of hits.

@mark24: you claim it's your favorite yet you don't play it AND you throw insults at it. doesn't seem coherent. maybe it's not as good as it should but it's no where near as horrid as you make it out to be. either a buff cause F/P's too far ahead before cap, nerf F/P, or a lil of both. can't say I/L is garbage because of some classes that are actually OP and when there's so many other classes much worse off.

example for range comparison. say I/L with AA and Evan both had 100k range. neither have INT skills (%) so we'll just keep them both at 1000 INT, 100 LUK.
I/L has 90% worth in %total (40% AA, 50% Amp). so has a range of 52.6k factoring those skills out. 52.6k = 1.2(4*1000+100)(X/100), X = matk = ~1069 matk. -70 matk from skills, this I/L has 999 matk from equips.
Evan has 35% in Matk, 50% total. so 66.7k range. 66.7k = (4*1000+100)(X/100), X = matk = ~1626 matk. take out Spark, X ~= 1204 matk. -you said 125 from skills, 1079 matk from equips. that's a whole 80 matk higher for unfair comparison, a whole 8% difference when you're trying to compare something that should be an even comparison.

@GoXDS: even nexon said how weak il mage is at bossing and training. read the il mage buffs and read why they buffed the class. everyone knows the class is weaksauce. il mage is my favorite class and I know its bad that's why im not playing it. It has way more problems than just damage.

http://orangemushroom.wordpress.com/

I doubt magic amplification is total damage but it could be. that wouldn't exactly be a bad thing though because it is better to balance total damage with %magic att for higher range vs just stacking one or the other.

@mark24: because if you factor AA and compare range readout of 350k on Evan with 350k on I/L, that means the equips are [i]not[/i] the same. as for Evan's Amp, Dragon Spark if it gave %matk and Amp also gave %matk, then if you drop your MP low enough, Dragon Spark would be less than a 35% drop. and Hey, I/L's Amp also says Matk +50% and yet it's additive with my Link Skill %total and AA %total. whole point is, no point in relying on the range you see.
I've already said Dojo isn't the same as normal bossing and it's disadvantageous towards I/L if you can kill quickly due to not getting all of Infinity's boost. and do you use Summons consistently? especially TStorm, which is also disadvantaged by Dojo

@GoXDS: like you said, il mage have 1.2 weapon attack multiplier. why would you not count arcane aim when comparing ranges. that's like saying don't count evan's 35% magic att buff when comparing. also where does it say that evan's magic amplification gives total damage?

My il mage was a little under 400k range. my evan with the same gear will be the same or higher but I bet you it will dojo almost 2x faster.

@mark24: and I/L have Amp as well (treated as %total in range) so don't use the whole 85% (and FYI, Evan's Amp is also %total while Dragon Spark is legit %matk). point is, you can't make an accurate judgement based solely on range. unless you tell me you actually had the same equips, using unequal dmg due to range is not a valid reasoning. the difference in dmg, does that even factor Infinity? since that's a ~1.183x multiplier overall without added %Buff. what about summons? those add to your overall DPS you know. and if you're using AA boosted range when comparing Evan and I/L, just stop.
and you still have it wrong. F/P are much further ahead [i]below[/i] cap. at cap, I/L is much closer to F/P than you're making them out to be (unless you increase F/P's range even further unless DoT capped by visual cap)

[quote=GoXDS]@mark24: if you're going to say a class is "garbage" overall, using cap is a very, very bad way to go about it. and I've said before Dojo is very different from Bossing. first, Infinity has issues in there when you can kill quickly. second, I/L has 1.2x weapon multiplier while Evans don't so you do not compare with the same range. and if you're to go back to JoeTang yet again, Evans and I/L are pretty much evan in %/s. if you factor weapon multiplier, I/L are above Evans. and it wouldn't be fair not to compare at cap if you did so with F/P, right? I/L has way more hits/s than Evans do if you want to use that comparison.[/quote]

Evan have 85% magic att(better than 1.2 multiplier), 125magic att from skills, 35% bossing from it's skills.

evan with the same range does more damage per second than il mage by a lot. il mage out damages evan when it is like 2mil range but at this point fp mage does way more damage and u should xfer gear from evan to fp.

Ice lightning mage is getting buffed hard as hell in kmst. In 7-9months it should be a strong class. Atm it's terribad.

@mark24: if you're going to say a class is "garbage" overall, using cap is a very, very bad way to go about it. and I've said before Dojo is very different from Bossing. first, Infinity has issues in there when you can kill quickly. second, I/L has 1.2x weapon multiplier while Evans don't so you do not compare with the same range. and if you're to go back to JoeTang yet again, Evans and I/L are pretty much evan in %/s. if you factor weapon multiplier, I/L are above Evans. and it wouldn't be fair not to compare at cap if you did so with F/P, right? I/L has way more hits/s than Evans do if you want to use that comparison.

[quote=GoXDS]@mark24: Bossing is very different from Dojo for one. using cap as the only standard is useless. ofc if you're going to compare to a theoretical max DPS output of F/P, I/L is "garbage by comparison" but why should F/P be the standard anyways when there's way more classes under I/L. so from an overall perspective, I/L is not garbage. also, at cap, it's the other way around. F/P is [i]not[/i] way stronger by comparison. no, hit/s is not the sole determinate because JoeTang's numbers include DoT as a hit even when it's no where close to 50m. thus I/L is comparable to F/P unless you [i]really[/i] increase your range to bring DoT to comparable levels to 50m. F/P is theoretically [i]way[/i] stronger before cap and I/L starts to get closer near cap.[/quote]

I used cap when comparing fp to il because if not capping on il it's damage with the same gear on compared to fp or evan is really really really bad.

350k range evan with 200% boss damage gets under 10minute dojos. An I/l with the same stats would get like a 20minute dojo.(no glitched frost orb)

@mark24: Bossing is very different from Dojo for one. using cap as the only standard is useless. ofc if you're going to compare to a theoretical max DPS output of F/P, I/L is "garbage by comparison" but why should F/P be the standard anyways when there's way more classes under I/L. so from an overall perspective, I/L is not garbage. also, at cap, it's the other way around. F/P is [i]not[/i] way stronger by comparison. no, hit/s is not the sole determinate because JoeTang's numbers include DoT as a hit even when it's no where close to 50m. thus I/L is comparable to F/P unless you [i]really[/i] increase your range to bring DoT to comparable levels to 50m. F/P is theoretically [i]way[/i] stronger before cap and I/L starts to get closer near cap.

[quote=GoXDS]@mark24 you use incomplete knowledge of information that requires to be put into context to give very biased opinions. so unless you're exaggerating a ton, no, I/L are not garbage.
[/quote]

if you aren't hitting cap or glitched they are garbage at solo bossing/dojo. if you are hitting cap fp is way stonger and makes them still garbage by comparison.

@mark24 you use incomplete knowledge of information that requires to be put into context to give very biased opinions. so unless you're exaggerating a ton, no, I/L are not garbage.
@Momijii well, CL's mob count was always wonky. iirc, 3 mobs way back in the day? and never bothered me since most maps didn't have mob counts of consistent 6+ and I wiped the map fast enough anyways.

Doesn't make up for CL only hitting 5 (7) though.

wow only 9 more months till il mage isn't garbage.

Sooo what you're saying is, Chain Lightning's gonna hurt 40% more after getting a 27% boost?
Wooooooooooooooooooooooot

Oh, that's awesome
I can't wait <3