Boss Vs Att percentage Guide
These two links will help you understand WHY boss % has to be 10x that of % attack. Up until now every one i asked has told me to keep my boss % under 270 and the rest of my potential lines at % attack. at 99% attack and 197% boss damage, I can tell you personally this is NOT the way to cube your items. It honestly felt very very inefficient to go towards so much attack %.
[url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EBMwpnPe_jPDKAjtiCeCP2kvLo3mKUU-yyialWYGCkE/edit#gid=0]Boss to Att Calculator[/url]
[url=http://bossvsatt.blogspot.com/]An Actual Explanation as to why it should be[/url]
I Tried to add another link but it was not allowed so I will let you basilers google and do some personal research
I've spent a lot of cubes getting to a very high boss % rate, only to have EVERYONE tell me otherwise. Without doing my research I've spent even more cubes getting to a very ridiculous amount of att %.
On another note. I've noticed people think % Total Damage is complete crap.
AGREEABLY. The line on the main potential can be better due to the fact that Total damage is merely added to %boss damage so 30% boss + 12% total damage = (virtually) 42% boss. Only the 12% total damage is also applied to mobs other than monsters considered as a boss. However it is not useless, it is actually nice to have % total damage on your bonus potential because boss damage lines on bonus potentials are quite low, and honestly 12% boss damage < 12% total damage anytime anywhere.
How the boss to att calculator works
You add your % att to the line that says Current % att. You do the same to % boss. At the new %boss line, you add 30, 35, 40, and below should show a calculated amount of what % att equals that boss % amount. I understand I have worded this horribly, so here's an example of what I mean.
Let's say you desire 99% att as I have. I have to my best attempt raised my boss% as high as possible and that was 197%. So we put 197 on the Current % boss line. And lets say we get another 12% attack line for potential. This % attack potential line is the same as getting an addition 18% boss damage potential line. Do you see how one potential line of 12% attack is much lower than a line of 40% boss?
Now... Let's input some efficient lines of potential.
Let's do a good and easy achievable 36% attack as Current % ATT. and since we have 36% attack, realistically we will and SHOULD have under 360% boss because % total damage comes into effect. So let's do 308% boss damage and 12% total damage. And in order to get maxed efficiency we need another 40% boss damage. You will notice that the best potential line for boss % damage will be very close to the best potential line for attack %. PROVIDED that this is a 3rd tier lvl item and not a lvl 160 weapon.
I hope this shines some light in a previous grey area, and helps those who are looking to be perfectionists as myself.
EDIT It was pointed out that there are also different sources of % total damage which I totally did not even think of mentioning.
There are link skills, and certain jobs have more % damage than other jobs. I believe my friend told me marksman have a little over 100% damage from their skills?
Please be sure to include this in your calculations.
OH and also, at higher attack %/ boss %age things begin to change so please make sure to use the calculator to figure out what your efficient potential lines need to be at :]
53 Comments • Newest first
Its a simple concept really,
1. DPS is proportional to (100% + %atk)
2. DPs is proportional to (100% + %total + %boss)
That really is all there is to it....
[quote=looniemunki]It doesnt matter what your flat attack is because ultimately it is multiplied. As stated in the link in my guide, the damage formula is (stuff) x (1+ boss % + td %) x (1+att %). The percentage of said boss, td, att will be in decimal due to the +1 since it makes it easier to calculate for those who have 0% att. The stuff is what you asked about. The stats, the base attack, etc. That can be calculated else where. My main point in the guide is to show people that those who've been preaching att % were, to bluntly put it, wrong. Balance is what you need and total damage isn't a crap line. Because emblems can not have boss dmg (besides oz which is not a permanent item). Provided you are a pure perfectionist and want nothing less than 40% boss per line. That will amount to 330-350% boss damage to my full understanding. Of course some classes have more boss % and total damage %. But for the sake of simplicity, 350% will be our cap. And let's say we have perfect bonus potentials as well with all 12% att lines. This will amount to 96% attack (this is including 2 of an emblem's main potential line since we also need PDR) Let's say we sacrifice 2 lines of 12% att for 12% damage in our potentials.
(1+3.5) X (1 + .96) = 8.82
(1+3.5+.24) X (1+ .84) = 8.72
The difference is ultimately a 2% damage difference, and at that point if you're not hitting max damage, the difference is quite unnoticeable.[/quote]
Wait, what? You dropped 12% ATT for 24% Boss (or %TD).
Using your numbers:
(1+3.5) * (1+.96) = 8.82
(1+3.5+.12) * (1+.96-.24) = 7.9464
The former is 11% better than the latter if you sacrifice 2 lines of 12% ATT for 1 12% damage. That is extremely significant.
If you want to be ideal:
2 * 25% Boss nebulites = 50%
RA Set (+ weapon) = 60%
Gollux Set = 30%
Pink Bean Title = 10%
DS Link Skill = 15%
Kanna Link Skill = 10%
DA Link Skill = 10%
3 lines of 40% Boss * 2 = 240%
Reboot Hyper stat = 30% Boss + 35% TD
490%. And all of this is class independent. Many classes have skills that give a lot of %TD (Reinforce hypers, mastery, etc).
AB link skill gives 120% TD for the class itself, and 60% TD for anyone who linked it.
I can see someone temporarily hitting over 800% %TD+%Boss if they were funded enough and the right class, though I have never seen a 40/40/40 weapon in my life (it's substantially more rare than 30% ATT).
How do you hit 800%?
AB Link level 3 = 120%
Finale Ribbon = 40%
Trinity (3 stacks) = 25%
Pretty Exaltation Hyper = 20%
AB passives = 85% including the 20% from Reinforce
780% (I would use Xenons, but I don't think they have 290% %TD that they have access to). Add in character decks (9-15%), IA (20%), and character cards (6-10%) and you will be over 800%.
Or you can just add a Decay or Destruction rune (50% TD). The max you can hit is probably around 900% TD + %Boss with Boss rush potions.
At 800% %Boss + %TD you need 170% ATT (yes, 170%, not 70%) to balance it out, provided you estimate 12% ATT = ~ 40% Boss. That is an impossible amount of %ATT to achieve.
12% * 3 * 3 = 108% ATT. Add a 12% line on your emblem and you will hit 120%. Even if you have 13% on each, that's only 10% more for those 10 lines -> 130%.
If you use 12% ATT = ~35% Boss you will need close to 200% ATT to balance it out.
[i]The reality is, keep the first three lines of %ATT or %Boss on your weapon or secondary that you get. You can mix-and-match[/i]
[i]The expense of getting the ideal roll is absolutely ridiculous, and 2 lines, even of the "right" one (%ATT or %Boss) is, at nearly all funding levels, worse than 3 lines of the "wrong" one.[/i]
[i]Most people will be %ATT heavy at nearly all stages of funding, but that is OK as long as they have 3 useful lines of a mixture of %ATT or %Boss on their weapon and secondary.[/i]
[quote=ashleyattacked]Even smaller TL ; DR --> %Atk is a gimmick to make Nexon more money than they would otherwise fairly (?) make from cubing. It exploits the over valuation of dmg against regular mobs due to easily misunderstood mathematical principles used to account for %atk and its role in your total range. My theory is that this represents a conscious and intentional combination of malicious taking advantage of intentionally tweaked (yet intentionally left vague) equations; how they interact with each other both with and within the context of (even vaguer) obscure gaming mechanics.
The resulting misunderstandings are further exploited by Nexon by having intentionally assuaged %atk as a stat. Its effect is lied about by way of omission and the resulting equations are allowed to remain uncontested despite being incorrectly simplified and misunderstood. On its own the entire construct, viewed through the lens Nexon has encouraged into existence, presents a true boost. That boost, however, while still real...when presented and looked at correctly shows itself as essentially meaningless. By lying and maliciously manipulating their customers with disinformation and intentionally unclarified and uncorrected equations, Nexon has strategically combined games toying with psychology together with obscure and unquantified/unqualified mechanics, then withheld the necessary specifics to correctly assess their interplay at crucial junctures...and come out with a mess that gains them 10x the profit. All for an illusory, misrepresented and intentionally unexplained stat. You can claim its all part of being an educated customer, but this combination and degree of intentional manipulation, vagueness and entirely unprecedented (it happens with NO other stat. Ask yourself why...because breaking the game has nothing to do with it.) behind the scenes tinkering with the odds controlling the simultaneous expression of one essentially random line of potential...and when you ask why, the answer becomes obvious and casts all the subsequent crap u thot unprofessional into sharp relief. It's done trick out enormous profits that would otherwise be entirely impossible without breaking the game.
In its totality what is going on is nothing short of fraud and it needs to not only be better understood, but Nexon should be brough to answer for it...and if not answer for it then at the very least reconfigure the odds behind the potentials and just walk away.
As it stands, essentially any boost you can argue gaining as a result of that focus on %atk compared to a similar but broader focus on a mixture of %atk, %boss, etc, is relatively negligible - and, in the end, is totally negated to the point where understanding it all in its place exposes your previous focus on %atk as being almost criminally stupid - had you not been tricked by a near fraudulent construct of lies, psychology and unreleased formulas held together with statistical slight of hand.
That's not being uninformed, that's called being defrauded.
All that wasted money spent aiming for Nexon's ghost stat...thats why any disparity between the two is meaningless. All that saved money at the cost of a marginal but still mostly invisible drop in dmg at bosses would have gotten you miles further ahead spent on any other thotless mess of unfinished or untouched gear...no strategy or thot involved.
Meow.[/quote]
This might be the best post I've ever seen on Basil. Especially since it was ended with meow.
[quote=emplex]@looniemunki wait so...explain something to me...is your flat atk that gets multiplied by % atk not relevant in these calculations? It should be...and in that case, we'd have to look at stats as well.[/quote]
It doesnt matter what your flat attack is because ultimately it is multiplied. As stated in the link in my guide, the damage formula is (stuff) x (1+ boss % + td %) x (1+att %). The percentage of said boss, td, att will be in decimal due to the +1 since it makes it easier to calculate for those who have 0% att. The stuff is what you asked about. The stats, the base attack, etc. That can be calculated else where. My main point in the guide is to show people that those who've been preaching att % were, to bluntly put it, wrong. Balance is what you need and total damage isn't a crap line. Because emblems can not have boss dmg (besides oz which is not a permanent item). Provided you are a pure perfectionist and want nothing less than 40% boss per line. That will amount to 330-350% boss damage to my full understanding. Of course some classes have more boss % and total damage %. But for the sake of simplicity, 350% will be our cap. And let's say we have perfect bonus potentials as well with all 12% att lines. This will amount to 96% attack (this is including 2 of an emblem's main potential line since we also need PDR) Let's say we sacrifice 2 lines of 12% att for 12% damage in our potentials.
(1+3.5) X (1 + .96) = 8.82
(1+3.5+.24) X (1+ .84) = 8.72
The difference is ultimately a 2% damage difference, and at that point if you're not hitting max damage, the difference is quite unnoticeable.
[quote=emplex]@looniemunki wait so...explain something to me...is your flat atk that gets multiplied by % atk not relevant in these calculations? It should be...and in that case, we'd have to look at stats as well.[/quote]
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/MapleStory/Formulas
due to bedmas, %atk can be moved anywhere in the equation, making %atk no different from a scaling cross surge / final cut, %weapon multiplier, or %range (besides in name)
**EDIT:** (weapon multiplier) * (4[total primary] + secondary stats) * ( total attack) * (1+total damage) + cross surge / final attack / armor break
2h sword with 69% attack 20k str, 4k dex , 420 flat attack, 20% total damage from links
1.34 * 84000 * (420*1.69) * (1+0.2) = 95874105.6
is no different from
(1.34*1.69) * 84000 * 420 * 1.2 = 95874105.6
1.34 * (84000*1.69) * 420 * 1.2 = 95874105.6
1.34 * 84000 * 800 * (1.2*1.69) = 95874105.6
1.69 * 1.34 * 84000 * 420 * 1.2 = 95874105.6
td;dr %attack builds are only good for ppl who already cap and can only further increase their damage by making their souls do more damage, since souls don't scale off boss damage
I have 67%atk with echo, 105% total+reinforce damage post hyper skill revamp, and so my optimal boss% is 352%, at which point an additional 12% attack line is worth 40% boss (317% if you factor in that both 35% boss and 40% boss are legendary lines, averaging out to be 37.5% boss costing a 12% atk line)
@looniemunki wait so...explain something to me...is your flat atk that gets multiplied by % atk not relevant in these calculations? It should be...and in that case, we'd have to look at stats as well.
Even smaller TL ; DR --> %Atk is a gimmick to make Nexon more money than they would otherwise fairly (?) make from cubing. It exploits the over valuation of dmg against regular mobs due to easily misunderstood mathematical principles used to account for %atk and its role in your total range. My theory is that this represents a conscious and intentional combination of malicious taking advantage of intentionally tweaked (yet intentionally left vague) equations; how they interact with each other both with and within the context of (even vaguer) obscure gaming mechanics.
The resulting misunderstandings are further exploited by Nexon by having intentionally assuaged %atk as a stat. Its effect is lied about by way of omission and the resulting equations are allowed to remain uncontested despite being incorrectly simplified and misunderstood. On its own the entire construct, viewed through the lens Nexon has encouraged into existence, presents a true boost. That boost, however, while still real...when presented and looked at correctly shows itself as essentially meaningless. By lying and maliciously manipulating their customers with disinformation and intentionally unclarified and uncorrected equations, Nexon has strategically combined games toying with psychology together with obscure and unquantified/unqualified mechanics, then withheld the necessary specifics to correctly assess their interplay at crucial junctures...and come out with a mess that gains them 10x the profit. All for an illusory, misrepresented and intentionally unexplained stat. You can claim its all part of being an educated customer, but this combination and degree of intentional manipulation, vagueness and entirely unprecedented (it happens with NO other stat. Ask yourself why...because breaking the game has nothing to do with it.) behind the scenes tinkering with the odds controlling the simultaneous expression of one essentially random line of potential...and when you ask why, the answer becomes obvious and casts all the subsequent crap u thot unprofessional into sharp relief. It's done trick out enormous profits that would otherwise be entirely impossible without breaking the game.
In its totality what is going on is nothing short of fraud and it needs to not only be better understood, but Nexon should be brough to answer for it...and if not answer for it then at the very least reconfigure the odds behind the potentials and just walk away.
As it stands, essentially any boost you can argue gaining as a result of that focus on %atk compared to a similar but broader focus on a mixture of %atk, %boss, etc, is relatively negligible - and, in the end, is totally negated to the point where understanding it all in its place exposes your previous focus on %atk as being almost criminally stupid - had you not been tricked by a near fraudulent construct of lies, psychology and unreleased formulas held together with statistical slight of hand.
That's not being uninformed, that's called being defrauded.
All that wasted money spent aiming for Nexon's ghost stat...thats why any disparity between the two is meaningless. All that saved money at the cost of a marginal but still mostly invisible drop in dmg at bosses would have gotten you miles further ahead spent on any other thotless mess of unfinished or untouched gear...no strategy or thot involved.
Meow.
[quote=looniemunki]? isnt it?... 30% is .3 and .08.... would be 8%?[/quote]
If you're going to start increasing attack by increments of .12 for every .4 boss, you're going to end up with 108% attack for 360% boss, not 8%.
I was just having an argument about this yday.
[I] Preface: [/I] the following isn't an argument regarding the mathematical application of any stat in any sort of equation compared directly to any other, nor is it about the specifics, meanings, or values, of any obscure [I]or[/I] obvious in game mechanic...I'm just contributing something about the practical, cost effective and strategic application of %atk vs other %stats...the only attribution of any of it to anything numerically specific or to any description of any formula or equation...is entirely generalized and only applied in the broadest sense as I'm no mathematician and have nothing to contribute regarding that sort of thing.
Just some thoughts on strategy and how to gear....
Not only do people overplay the importance of %atk almost universally - think about it strategically. %atk is essentially used by Nexon like a gimmick. They know people are far more likely to be impressed by the dmg they have as they see it applied to REGULAR mobs, no matter how essentially meaningless this is when bossing is where dmg really matters.
To this end Nexon slightly skews, without breaking the game, the value of %boss dmg lines and %atk lines by making the likelihood of achieving 2 lines of %atk astronomically more rare than receiving 2 lines of %boss dmg - to that end, 2 lines of %boss dmg with one line of 9% or even 12% atk as well (thus, essentially 3 perfect lines on one item)...is, in my experience, if not as hard to get as 21%atk and a crap third line - I think it's actually EASIER to a measurable degree - and thus far and away cheaper as goes the idea of completing that item to perfection.
%Boss lines are simply FAR easier to get...and if you strategically keep that in mind and use it to your benefit by striking a balance between cost & benefit as it applies to this in practice (ie, sticking with that potential that gives you three lines totalling 70% boss/ 9% atk...instead of recubing for 21%atk/crap third line bc you over estimate the value of %atk)...not only would you turn out with an item ESSENTIALLY as good as an item with 30% atk...you could unequivocally make up ANY disparity between either 'perfect' item because of the huge amount of money it would save you to invest towards other items which would otherwise remain untouched or unfinished.
To that end %atk is a gimmick. Everyone assumes that since it's applied to the dmg equation independent of anything else that its being largely uneffected by the law of diminishing returns (even tho it actually is effected to a degree...ppl are just confusing pure atk with %atk.) set its in an entirely different ballpark than any other stat line and thus frees you to throw out any notion of 'settling' for less.
You're not.
I'd even go so far as to say that for 95% or more of ppl...if you DO cube an item that has 30%atk...you'd be stupid to KEEP it. If you're gonna value your money and time with any pride and self respect - SELL IT. You'll get such a MASSIVE profit from it that you can easily replace it with a 70%boss/9% - 12%atk item and still have a fortune to spend working on other stuff. %atk is the most over valued thing in the game.
[I] Note: [/I] I'm [I]-not-[/I] saying it's not effective or that it's not likely to be most effective as far as raising your range goes - I'm saying that by and large the only difference between having 71% atk, 270% boss dmg and 90% pdr on your character...and 92% atk, 200% boss dmg and 90% pdr is that your range on bosses is, at most, the difference between like 4.8 mil and 4.2 mil - and thus the only meaningful difference between the first and second set of gear is that the first one likely cost you $500 - $800 dollars less to make and saved you an inordinate amount of time. Further the second set would be better used to sell towards funding yourself further more strategically so that you come out with even more nearly perfect finished items....
Don't fall for the gimmick. It's not a matter of being perfectionist, its a matter of being exploited by Nexon for thousands of dollars more for an essentially meaningless boost in dmg...
[B] [I] TL : DR [/I] [/B] -- Exaggerating how much cheaper, easier, cost effect (even smarter?) cubing for 2-3 perfect lines comprised of a carefully considered mixture of 2-3 different stats (atk/boss/pdr) is [I] - when compared to - [/I] cubing for 2-3 perfect lines of the same identical (and disproportionately rarer) stat is impossible to do. It is simply the most strategic and logical path to take if money is something you consider in any way while making your gear. Any argument against it in favour of a pure or even just biased towards %atk approach nearly completely moot & negated when you consider how much money it'll save you to use on perfecting other untouched or unfinished items.
Stat for stat --> the most noteworthy difference between a weapon that has 70% boss dmg and 12% (or even 9%) ATK and that same weapon with 21% atk and a crap third line, is that the second one will leave you both weaker and poorer. If you compare the first one to something like 30% atk (or even just 21% atk and 30% boss dmg) - the biggest difference will be in how much poorer you are. Any net loss towards range you get from 'settling' for one vs the other is utterly negated when you consider the money saved that can be used elsewhere.
[B] This point is so crucial to remember (given the amount of money it'll save you) that I literally cannot think of a situation wherein anyone, should they hit the lottery and get 30% atk on an item, would be smart in keeping that item. You're simply making a mistake - SELL IT. You will make a massive profit from it and that will easily position you far further along down the path in finishing your gear than you would have been had you kept it. [/B]
//end.
~ Alisa =)
[B] EDIT: [/B]
[I] The following is some personal anecdotes I figured I'd share if anyone's curious. [/I]
[I] [B] Skip [/B] this unless you're curious about my personal experiences with the above ideas in action [/I]
After using millions of NX on cubing items, not just directly towards my own gear but also towards merching and helping my boyfriend...I have only ONCE scrolled an item with 30% atk. I have, however, scrolled items with a mixture of 3 essentially perfect lines combined to achieve totals like 70% boss dmg, 9% or 12%atk ; 60% boss dmg and 12%atk ; even 40% boss dmg, 9%atk, 30% PDR on nearly 10 occasions that I can remember off the top of my head. When I scrolled the 30% atk item it was a thief weapon and the profit I made from selling it got me a perfectly scrolled and neb'd leg/leg 37%dex, 14 atk Sup Gollux Earring, enough NX to finish cubing both the regular and bpot on my tyrant gluff (here it is: http://i.imgur.com/sk8Rxh7.jpg ) and a DUCKY chair. lol.
I've further only 1 other time gotten 3 different lines of %atk at the same time on one potential of an item (this http://imgur.com/WICwnUa )
What I'm saying is...if you consider something like 70%boss dmg & 12% atk a relatively acceptable compromise for 30% atk as far as your items and the money you have to use on them is concerned - you will likely spend millions of NX less reaching the former before you reach the latter. If you somehow to reach the latter - you will make so much more off selling it than it would ever help u with on its own. I know this from personal experience, I'm not guessing.
o noe rip %atk hipsters :< NomorGiggles5me
EDIT: I wrote a poem :]
roses are shat
violets are bae
hundred percent boss
so buy nx tudei
:]
EDIT2: @looniemunki don't forget to factor in that hyper skill passives such as extra boss dmg% on an attack, or reinforce damage as total damage
[quote=believemenot]@qwertrew
@.@ exactly how much better is 21att over 21ttd? beacause I spent 170$ cubing for that ttd line. I might have to spend a lot more for 21% att. I Just want to know if it's worth it.. I have around 81% att and 230% boss right now. would the 21 att bonus pot improve my damage significantly?[/quote]
So there I was wrong, and honestly I'm not ashamed to admit it lol But your money can be spent to cubing for more boss %, With your stats, If you managed to get another 40% boss, that 40% boss equals 20.85% attack. Whereas getting a 12% attack is equal to a mere 23.02% boss damage. I'm not sure why the Calculator I linked isn't edit-able so hold up. Let me try and fix it.
edit: I tried but I unno why it's letting you make a copy. You'll just have to download the excel spreadsheet and from there you can calculate what your next move should be. I think the obvious answer however is: More Boss %
For the sake of argument, I will take my above calculation for 21% TD and compare it to 12% att:
Assuming you have 21% total damage lines:
(1+2.3+0.21)*(1.81) = 6.3531
Assuming you have a 12% attack line:
(1+2.3)*(1.81+0.12) = 6.369
The ratio: 1.002
So a single 12% att line will increase your DPS a mere 0.2% over having 21% total damage.
[quote=believemenot]thank you. finally some proof for what I've been preaching forever. ttd is not trash like people say it is[/quote]
@looniemunki:
it is. well, not "TRASH" but out of the three it's the worst potential, i recommend getting to know the math behind the system thoroughly before dealing with this subject. right now, potential-wise these 4 lines are equal: boss 40%, boss 35%, attk 12%, TD 12%. which means that to use one, you'd have to sacrifice the other.
Total damage and boss damage are additive, which means if you want to deal more damage to a boss, "12% boss" and 12% TD would always in every scenario give exactly the same damage, we don't have boss 12% though, we have boss 35/40%, which is pretty much THREE times the bonus we can get from TD when bossing.
Attk % is multiplicative with boss%, and since TD is the same kind of increase as boss, attk% is also multiplicative by it, then simple math and logic will tell you that attack is better than TD. why? you're going to have a lot, and i mean a LOT of boss damage, at least you're expected to be over 100% boss damage, and in the damage formula it looks something like this:
(rest of formula)*(1+attk%)*(1+boss%+TD%)
so using the 100% boss i mentioned above, let's look at the difference in damage multiplier when adding 12% total damage and 12% attack:
with total damage:
(1+0)*(1+1.00+0.12)
1*(2.12)
2.12
so you went from dealing 2x damage on bosses to 2.12x damage on bosses with attack however...
(1+0.12)*(1+1.00+0)
(1.12)*2
2.24
bang, an extra .12 damage, and this was at the very low amount of only 100% boss, the more boss damage you have the more effective %attk is over total damage, and that's why total damage is bad.
the only place where i'd recommend getting total damage is if you want to JUST damage monsters, in such case equal %attk and %TD is recommended, but i don't recommend doing this in the first place anyways.
@believmenot even 1 line of %att would be better than 21%td. The original post talks about maximising damage with a specific boss+td to att ratio, but while that's true for regular weapon potentials, bonus pot does not have 40%boss=12% att. The general calculation method still works for bpot, but now you're comparing 18% boss (I think) to 12% att. In this case, att will almost always be better.
[quote=believemenot]@qwertrew
@.@ exactly how much better is 21att over 21ttd? beacause I spent 170$ cubing for that ttd line. I might have to spend a lot more for 21% att. I Just want to know if it's worth it.. I have around 81% att and 230% boss right now. would the 21 att bonus pot improve my damage significantly?[/quote]
Here are the applicable multipliers for you.
(With the assumption that you have no other sources of total damage, which is most likely false)
Assuming you have 21% total damage line:
(1+2.3+0.21)*(1.81) = 6.3531
First bracket is for boss+TD, second is for att.
Assuming you have an attack line:
(1+2.3)*(1.81+0.21) = 6.666
Taking a simple ratio of the two multipliers: 1.049
In other words, swapping 21% total damge for 21%att will increase your damage by approximately 5%.
[quote=believemenot]@qwertrew
@.@ exactly how much better is 21att over 21ttd? beacause I spent 170$ cubing for that ttd line. I might have to spend a lot more for 21% att. I Just want to know if it's worth it.. I have around 81% att and 230% boss right now. would the 21 att bonus pot improve my damage significantly?[/quote]
OMGG don't believe what he says. He didn't even read my guide LOL use the calculator. I know first hand that % dmg is better if you have that much % attack already. I JUST cubed away 21% attack away for 70% boss damage and my damage on bosses literally increased by 5mil per line... trust me when I say this. It's all about balance. Don't listen to this guy, he has no idea what he's doing.
@qwertrew
@.@ exactly how much better is 21att over 21ttd? beacause I spent 170$ cubing for that ttd line. I might have to spend a lot more for 21% att. I Just want to know if it's worth it.. I have around 81% att and 230% boss right now. would the 21 att bonus pot improve my damage significantly?
[quote=believemenot]ah i see. This makes me feel more comfortable having 21 ttd as the bonus pot for my weapon. I always reconsider recubing, but i have % att on everythin else so i think ttd is needed here. thanks so much![/quote]
Well I mean... Having 21% att on bpots is VERY difficult to beat compared to the boss/TD counterparts. I just did the calculations that 21% att > 21% total damage even if you have an obscure ratio of boss to att. I'm talking 100% TD+boss with 63% att. The calculations only favour att more the more boss you have.
Actually to put it into context when 21% total damage bpot will equal 21% at bpot... In the OP's case of having 99% att already, an additional 21%att will be equivalent to 21% total damage when you have 99% boss + TD. So it takes very very extreme values to justify having a 21% total damage pot over a 21% att pot.
The reason %boss is generally better is because if you're ready to be bossing, generally you'll be one hitting most normal monsters anyway.
[quote=ilovekaiser]@believemenot the reason why people say TD is not great is because you can get a much higher boss% and it has the same effect as TD. So maybe if you have nothing else to upgrade, just try getting boss% maybe [/quote]
Yes and for main potentials that'd be very very true and if you just so happen to get a total damage as a third line on main potential, it aint that bad
I BELIEVE, don't quote me on this, But I THINK boss damage is like... 12-14%? on bonus pots so getting total damage is definitely worthwhile since it affects mobs
[quote=believemenot]ah i see. This makes me feel more comfortable having 21 ttd as the bonus pot for my weapon. I always reconsider recubing, but i have % att on everythin else so i think ttd is needed here. thanks so much![/quote]
Aha You DEFINITELY shouldn't recube that. That's one mighty fine bonus pot xD
ah i see. This makes me feel more comfortable having 21 ttd as the bonus pot for my weapon. I always reconsider recubing, but i have % att on everythin else so i think ttd is needed here. thanks so much!
[quote=ilovekaiser]@looniemunki Thank you very much for this, I don't play ms anymore but I can see how this can be really useful to many players. Unfortunately Basil is full of idiots so don't get too frustrated when people don't understand or argue without even bothering to read your stats or understand your stats. (most of the people here are 14~16 so they most likely won't have the mathematical capability to understand)
@qwertrew at least read and understand what the OP is saying before arguing lol...[/quote]
Yeah I had my blood boiling over nothing and over no one. I guess obvious troll was obvious. No one is that thick skinned lol.
[quote=believemenot]wait but both of u agree that %boss > %att > %ttd?[/quote]
No. A very quick summary of what I wrote. (Maybe I should have started off with this so that people who don't even have the patience to read a few paragraphs can read it.)
%boss = % att = % ttd as long as it's well balanced. And that balance point is approximately 300% boss 30% attack. Though obviously, to get a much more accurate ratio, I have included a calculator. Because getting only % attack on bonus potential is inefficient. You would need % total damage on some of your lines to try and balance out the 3.
[quote=qwertrew]OP wrote a guide. Instantly qualified. Calls others ignorant because she wrote a guide, and because they used different calculations. Human ignorance on Basil everybody.
At this point, it is so apparent you don't understand the math that it is not even worth trying to get you to understand. Have a nice day Ms. Perfectionist.[/quote]
No actually, I'm beginning to think you're just not capable of reading at all. Look at my previous comments. Tell me that I've called ANYONE else ignorant? Nope. I called you and only you ignorant. Don't try turning this into something I've started. You're the ill-mannered person who doesn't have the decency to read a guide before arguing. I sure hope anyone in the supreme court isn't as lazy and ill-prepared as you are. If someone like you were to decide on a convict's ruling. Almost indefinitely would all convicts innocent or guilty be sentenced to death. You'd probably zone out through the whole process of court and come up with one statement. Too Lazy To Listen. Death by electrocution.
OP wrote a guide. Instantly qualified. Calls others ignorant because she wrote a guide, and because they used different calculations. Human ignorance on Basil everybody.
At this point, it is so apparent you don't understand the math that it is not even worth trying to get you to understand. Have a nice day Ms. Perfectionist.
wait but both of u agree that %boss > %att > %ttd?
[quote=qwertrew]Lmfao? Me? Ignorant? I explained it to you quite clearly and you went to personally attack me. You must be SO qualified to answer this. I'm sorry for even doubting you /sarcasm
So your 10x boss to attack ratio only holds at 300% boss? Wow you're amazing. I basically came up with something much more general and useful than something your half-ass useless generalization did.
I perfectly explained to you why it's more accurate to use 35% instead of 40% because on a primary legendary line (WHICH IS WHAT 12% att is), you can get either 30%, 35% or 40% boss, all at approximately equal chance. Therefore, it's more accurate to use 35% instead of 40%. Since you know.... (30+35+40)/3 = 35....
And I wasn't saying to get boss on bonus potentials... I was saying that the equivalence of a 35% boss line and a 12% att line falls apart when you consider bonus potentials...
For example, end game you'll get about 63%att from bonus potentials. (21% from each of the 3 weapon slots)
What the formula I derived for you, but you chose to ignore, would suggest that you need 190+63*2.9 = 372.7% total boss+TD in order to even warrant having %att on ANY of the main pots of your weapon. THIS is what I was speaking about when I said %att on bonus pots throws the entire argument out the window.
And why do you feel the need to insult me when I came up with MY OWN calculations...? It has no bearing on you... Are you that insecure?
I am arguing with your guide because it has some fundamental flaws in it's assumptions, and I'm pointing them out. That is all. If you want to choose to ignore them, whatever.[/quote]
TL;DR? you're gonna argue with my guide after not reading it? Yes, you'd be very very very VERY ignorant to judge a book by it's covers. The fact that I MADE the guide makes me more than qualified compared to you who didn't bother reading it. And no it holds in nearly all the ratios and the 10x was a generalization. No you actually DIDN'T explain anything. Oh so I guess primary legendary line for attack % is at a constant of 12? not 10.5? because you know... it's impossible to get 9% attack lines right?. GG
The whole point of the guide was to tell people not to get 63% attack even from bonus potentials, but to balance it out to whatever you need. whether it be total damage, attack %, boss %.
You talk like you talked about any formula in your other post. I insult your calculations because they're obviously much more flawed than what shows up on the websites I have listed. 35% boss = 12 % attack? What?... Do you have some magic cubes that some how ignores 9% attack lines and gives you 12%? why don't you try 35/10.5 and then divide 40 and 12.
EDIT On a last note. I have every right to say whatever I want to you. You come into a guide that I wrote for the community. Showing evidence that backs what I say, and you have the audacity to what; tell me that it's too long and that you didn't read it? You're going to correct me based on what? An extremely quick glance? It must be nice being so ignorant as yourself. Simply thick skinned.
[quote=looniemunki]I said generally. because the most realistic % boss you can get is in the 300% range and he was not talking about ratios nor would it be correct if you were to average out the potentials. seeing how at legendary you can't get 6% attack it'd be 35:9.5 but nonetheless, he said it himself that the prime line is 35%.[/quote]
Lmfao? Me? Ignorant? I explained it to you quite clearly and you went to personally attack me. You must be SO qualified to answer this. I'm sorry for even doubting you /sarcasm
So your 10x boss to attack ratio only holds at 300% boss? Wow you're amazing. I basically came up with something much more general and useful than something your half-ass useless generalization did. Note that when we get Hyper Stat system, a lot of players will effectively get another 60% or so in boss+TD, which makes your 10x formula even more useless, since people will be going well over 300% boss+TD
I perfectly explained to you why it's more accurate to use 35% instead of 40% because on a primary legendary line (WHICH IS WHAT 12% att is), you can get either 30%, 35% or 40% boss, all at approximately equal chance. Therefore, it's more accurate to use 35% instead of 40%. Since you know.... (30+35+40)/3 = 35....
And I wasn't saying to get boss on bonus potentials... I was saying that the equivalence of a 35% boss line and a 12% att line falls apart when you consider bonus potentials...
For example, end game you'll get about 63%att from bonus potentials. (21% from each of the 3 weapon slots)
What the formula I derived for you, but you chose to ignore, would suggest that you need 190+63*2.9 = 372.7% total boss+TD in order to even warrant having %att on ANY of the main pots of your weapon. THIS is what I was speaking about when I said %att on bonus pots throws the entire argument out the window.
And why do you feel the need to insult me when I came up with MY OWN calculations...? It has no bearing on you... Are you that insecure?
I am arguing with your guide because it has some fundamental flaws in it's assumptions, and I'm pointing them out. That is all. If you want to choose to ignore them, whatever.
It's just very apparent that YOU don't know how the formulas work, and you're relying on some calculator to tell you everything. I feel really bad for people that take your load of rubbish at face value.
[quote=believemenot]thank you. finally some proof for what I've been preaching forever. ttd is not trash like people say it is[/quote]
Oh yeah definitely not in bonus pot. If you can balance att% and boss % and total damage (in bonus pot) total damage would actually be better off than boss.
thank you. finally some proof for what I've been preaching forever. ttd is not trash like people say it is
[quote=mvietp09]Thanks for this, I got really into calculating my optimal balance out and found out all the violet cubes that gave me %total damage and boss damage actually gave me the best multiplier to up my damage on bosses. Somehow I managed to go 423% boss+total damage : 45% attack, this is actively when I buff with ab link and epic adventure though. If I don't buff with those in at 368 : 45.
It's nice that Paladins have 95% damage passively already, it really boosted up my numbers especially since I'm using sw/tyrant so I don't get the cra boss set effect.
I'm really glad I saw this before I decided to cube away my boss damage for attack. Thanks for a great post.[/quote]
you are very welcome :]
I wish I understood this before I cubed away my 75% boss 9% attack on my secondary
Thanks for this, I got really into calculating my optimal balance out and found out all the violet cubes that gave me %total damage and boss damage actually gave me the best multiplier to up my damage on bosses. Somehow I managed to go 423% boss+total damage : 45% attack, this is actively when I buff with ab link and epic adventure though. If I don't buff with those in at 368 : 45.
It's nice that Paladins have 95% damage passively already, it really boosted up my numbers especially since I'm using sw/tyrant so I don't get the cra boss set effect.
I'm really glad I saw this before I decided to cube away my boss damage for attack. Thanks for a great post.
[quote=axnslicer]That's wrong.
0% att balances with 200% boss
10% att balances with 230% boss
20% att balances with 260% boss
30% att balances with 290% boss
40% att balances with 320% boss
50% att balances with 350% boss
60% att balances with 380% boss
70% att balances with 420% boss
80% att balances with 450% boss
Your 10x formula is totally off. Dunwrybbg is right here, though he is using a boss:att ratio of 35:12 instead of 36:12.[/quote]
I said generally. because the most realistic % boss you can get is in the 300% range and he was not talking about ratios nor would it be correct if you were to average out the potentials. seeing how at legendary you can't get 6% attack it'd be 35:9.5 but nonetheless, he said it himself that the prime line is 35%.
[quote=looniemunki]
and by 10x boss than att, I meant that it should generally be 10 times what ever % your attack is at.
[/quote]
That's wrong.
0% att balances with 200% boss
10% att balances with 230% boss
20% att balances with 260% boss
30% att balances with 290% boss
40% att balances with 320% boss
50% att balances with 350% boss
60% att balances with 380% boss
70% att balances with 420% boss
80% att balances with 450% boss
Your 10x formula is totally off. Dunwrybbg is right here, though he is using a boss:att ratio of 35:12 instead of 36:12.
[quote=qwertrew]I fail to see how this proves you need 10x more boss than att. The second explanation link hinges around the fact that at a 40% boss and 12%att line are equivalent. And that is the entire basis about when you should add attack. There are several problems with this.
1) A primary legendary line is not 40% boss. It can be either 40%, 35% or 30%. This makes a slight difference when it's best to start adding attack. It's better to treat a primary legendary line as 35%
2) On bonus potentials it's only viable to get %att, which throws a whole wrench in the equivalence of a boss and attack line.
But in principle even with all the above problems you basically come up with above:
35%boss = 12%att line.
So therefore 10%boss = 2.91%att
However, the lines do not become equivalent until you hit 191% in boss and total damage combined. So you need to get 191%boss+TD before you even start to add attack.
And then after that you should be adding boss to attack at a ratio of 10% boss to ~3%att.
TL;DR Get 191% boss+TD then get 3% att for every 10% boss.[/quote]
? The only reason you fail to see jack squat is because you didn't read it. So no 40% boss = 12% att line because 40% is the highest boss line you can get on an item like RA weapon. 12% att is the highest... how does 35%boss = 12% boss? o.o Then what does 40% equal? 15% attack? lol
and by 10x boss than att, I meant that it should generally be 10 times what ever % your attack is at.
TL;DR? why would you try arguing with me if you haven't even read my guide?... that's like judging a book by it's cover... please read it and come back and try arguing with me. otherwise don't comment and show basil how ignorant humans can be.
for your 2) that's all part of balancing out att% and boss%... and to balance it out, you can get total damage or boss %... but obviously getting as much att % on bonus pot and as much boss % on main potential is what you need to do... what you think I was telling maplers to get boss % on bonus potential?
I fail to see how this proves you need 10x more boss than att. The second explanation link hinges around the fact that at a 40% boss and 12%att line are equivalent. And that is the entire basis about when you should add attack. There are several problems with this.
1) A primary legendary line is not 40% boss. It can be either 40%, 35% or 30%. This makes a slight difference when it's best to start adding attack. It's better to treat a primary legendary line as 35%
2) On bonus potentials it's only viable to get %att, which throws a whole wrench in the equivalence of a boss and attack line.
But in principle even with all the above problems you basically come up with above:
35%boss = 12%att line.
So therefore 10%boss = 2.91%att
However, the lines do not become equivalent until you hit 191% in boss and total damage combined. So you need to get 191%boss+TD before you even start to add attack.
And then after that you should be adding boss to attack at a ratio of 10% boss to ~3%att.
TL;DR Get 191% boss+TD then get 3% att for every 10% boss.
If you can cap on mobs you can cap on bosses, given that you have the PDR, atleast Shoot for the moon guys, don't settle for anything less. atk, td and pdr all the way~ lol
@looniemunki: Basically a buff kanna gets from haku gives you about 200%m.att if you have a 400m.att+ fan on haku (or 100%m.att from a 200m.att fan). Due to extremely high %m.att, kannas do not benefit much from %m.att lines like other jobs, and getting boss% wherever possible is ideal.
[quote=loxiona]This kind of efficency balancing doesn't really apply to Kannas. Feels gud to be sitting at [url=http://i.imgur.com/inJOIgi.png]227%m.att and 334%boss/tot.[/url][/quote]
Can't really say much since i know little to nothing about kannas :]
This kind of efficency balancing doesn't really apply to Kannas. Feels gud to be sitting at [url=http://i.imgur.com/inJOIgi.png]227%m.att and 334%boss/tot.[/url]
[quote=hydraxide]The explanation link is so dumb, I remember someone linking it in the maple subreddit. I doubt the author even proofread, he says 3.6 boss is 360% yet 1.08 attack is 8% attack. Last time I checked you are supposed to use the same scales throughout.[/quote]
? isnt it?... 30% is .3 and .08.... would be 8%?
The explanation link is so dumb, I remember someone linking it in the maple subreddit. I doubt the author even proofread, he says 3.6 boss is 360% yet 1.08 attack is 8% attack. Last time I checked you are supposed to use the same scales throughout.
[quote=yvgamer94]Very good. It seems a line of 30% boss is the same as 12% att line for me haha and I also only have 180%boss so I need more boss I guess.[/quote]
Then it looks like your potentials are at zen
If you get more boss damage make sure you even it out with some att %
Very good. It seems a line of 30% boss is the same as 12% att line for me haha and I also only have 180%boss so I need more boss I guess.
[quote=goxds]that whole first chart business was totally confusing in the way it was presented. should've stuck with just the second chart explanation, though I understand that this was posted 2 years ago and I assume by someone else?[/quote]
Heck I'm just glad I made any sense at all.
Yes but it's not like maple changes their damage formula often. They just change buffs around which can be annoying to perfectionists. It was actually probably harder to achieve max proficiency 2 years ago. I believe there were not a lot of set effects that gave boss % damage.
@Flya Yes, this is why the damage calculator is handy because there are still things that I don't understand that may make a minimum difference in the lower % att and lower % boss. But the higher it goes, the more efficient att % becomes. But we're talking about having a balanced 70% att and 700% boss damage. A ratio of which is yet currently unavailable.
This can go both ways. There is also the part where your %att can outway your % boss. You just got to find the right balance to be optimal!
that whole first chart business was totally confusing in the way it was presented. should've stuck with just the second chart explanation, though I understand that this was posted 2 years ago and I assume by someone else?
Saving to try later
[quote=elufu]You're missing the most important piece of information. Boss% and %TD is additive. When you calculate your boss%, you have to add your %TD with it as well (Please note %TD has variety of sources, so be sure not to miss any).[/quote]
This is very true. But I was speaking in merely terms of item potential lines. It is true different classes have different % damage so yes, thank you very very much xD.
[quote=masterobert]I don't see how you want 10x more boss than attack. Also, you need to make your spreadsheet visible if you have link.
Is it any different than this link? [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13B4Vs9ZDyGL0NvKyO3_pU5XxITI1t-fl794GZwoSEGQ] [/url][/quote]
I believe I have fixed it!
You're missing the most important piece of information. Boss% and %TD is additive. When you calculate your boss%, you have to add your %TD with it as well (Please note %TD has variety of sources, so be sure not to miss any).
[Edit] Just saw the calculator link: The calculator will add the %TD for you, so the above is not necessary but explains the variance of importance between classes.