basilmarket

Renkesn

BM
Pro
Good status resistance
has a stance skill
Really high dps if you get to with with both turret and hurricane
Has a drain.Also your turret can heal you if you have blood arrow on and it wastes no arrow...

Con
Low defense
no mob controlling skill
arrow stream animation is ugly but it is not bad

As for MM
Pro
High Damage without too much funding
has really high damage reduction that works on 1/1 attacks
basically has to hero's will with Pain Killer(good against boss with seduce)

Con
Snipe animation is long and gets you killed
no vertical attacks
Your shield goes away if you don't attack for a while(when seduced)
Arrow Illusion is not that good and its cast animation is long.
**The crosbow covers your whole face >.<**

I would say BM is a lot better than MM right now. At bosses like mag and grollux you can heal using your dam turret and dont even have to attack.also being able to move while using hurricane is really useful and should not be over looked I am playing MM right now but their long attack animations are killing me..

Reply January 5, 2015

bluebomber24

@betaboi101: There are PLENTY of sources (set effects, link skills, etc) where PDR should be a very minor issue if any. There is absolutely no reason for a BM to be wasting an emblem on PDR. That would be very incredulous for a BM to do that. Again, I can not stress enough not to underestimate the free stuff and set effects that everyone gets. Furthermore, against a boss like Vellum, a MM would not even get the full benefits of their own PDR consitently due to thier distancing system and Snipes maximum range. Again, that is why I refer you to various types of DPM charts which include PDR options and scenarios.

Now, understand, a MM has very good odds to outdpm a BM with less funding on Vellum due to thier PDR. I can't deny that, heck, Mercedes has the potential to outdpm a BM on Vellum. But that alone SHOULD NOT be a reason why a Bowmaster should invest more PDR than a MM would. Why? Because every other boss has 180 pdr or less and dpm definitly starts to swing in the BMs favor. Remember about 10-20% of BMs damage is getting a 50% PDR multiplier [b]and[/b] a 0.8 to 1.8x multiplier depending on the boss which reduces the reliance of funded pdr.

Keep in mind this is me being Hyper conservative. I am assuming that the MM in question has max attack speed, BMs don't get a free AFA% boost via Card system, and Turret does not activate AFA.

Reply December 19, 2014 - edited

betaboi101

@bluebomber24:

Yeah, you are right as far as the visual range aspect is concerned . My point about funding was that a marksman would need much less stat boosts to reach their max potential where as a bowmaster needs heavier stat boosts to surpass a marksman's max potential. Let's say for the sake of this example that a marksman has a 1.3mil range and the bm has a 1.6m visual range (assuming extreme archery). The marksman at that point will reach their limit and be able to efficiently solo chaos root bosses (not including chaos vellum). The bowmaster at this point will not be able to efficiently solo chaos root abyss bosses as they require more pdr (additional funding via cubing an emblem or weapon/ secondary to cater to their pdr deficiency). To make it fair, lets say that the bowmaster cubes enough pdr on their emblem. The marksman who does not require as much pdr because of passives with the same funds can use the funds that the bm has utilized to cube for pdr and instead cube their emblem for % att. As a result, with the SAME funding, the gap of the 1.3mil vs 1.6mil will close in a bit if say the marksman cubed their emblem for 21% att and now has an additional 21% att that the bowmaster lacks because the bowmaster is using their lines for pdr.

Reply December 19, 2014 - edited

bluebomber24

@betaboi101: What I said is correct. I am well aware of the information you posted but I did not say a BM gets a 1.4x benefit from DPM. I am saying you should not be looking at Range, because the game will increase the BM's visual range by 1.4x even though the DPM won't see an equivalent boost. MM distancing ability does not affect their visual range. As a result a MM should always have a lower visual range than a BM with equal funding.

Reply December 19, 2014 - edited

betaboi101

[quote=bluebomber24]@betaboi101:
A BM can get up to 98-99% Crit rate for free without any funding advantage loss. So I am not sure what Max crit rate has to do with anything. Simply switching to bowamster also doesn't say much, as equips and etc make an important difference for each class. If you just threw weapons that was similary potted like a MM on a BM, the BM of the past will definitely perform lackluster, as demonstrated by Elufu's damage calculator in the past. Unless you have data on everything that you did with this change, you shouldnt really be basing your observations purely on a job change; there are just way too many variables. For example, one of my first questions would be if you actually increased your crit rate to its maximum free potential, because as you mentioned that makes a HUGE difference when comparing the two, which again can be seen and demonstrated in Elufu's calculator. Further, depending on when this Job Change was, MMs DPM was greater than BMs anyway which at THAT time funding for a BM was more important. That is not to case with the BM and MM of today, which is why the argument is outdated.

As I stated earlier, BM and MM have comparable dpm, making range and capping irrelevant. Range means very little ESPEICALLY after this update. It is highly possible for a MM with a lower range to outdpm a BM. In KMST the Extreme Archery buff was calculated to for the most part overcome the nerf to blaster and moving of Hurricane. It wasn't until split Hurricane became 65% in the following KMST, that BMs actually experienced a buff. All that 40% is doing is padding (inaccurately) the range number when realistically by itself it does little when compared to the old BM. [b]I would be utterly shocked if a MM could't outdpm a BM with a lower range[/b]; but that has absolutely nothing to do with funding. Range does not tell you the whole story, range is not even reflected accurately compared to how the game calculates it. That is why the focus should be on DPM.

To put it in an example, because I tend to have typos and not make sense, lets pretend that BMs and MMs have the EXACT same DPM. Now, lets say the MMs range is 1.2M, now because of Extreme Archery, the BM's range has to be 1.68M. Thus, the MM CAN solo bosses with less range, but that has nothing to do with funding and more to do with the how skills are affecting them. A MM should ALWAYS have a lower range than an equally funded BM.[/quote]

Nah, I'm king of spelling the most medial things wrong and of stupid careless typos so no worries at all . I disagree with your statement in regards to extreme archery though. On normal mobs it adds 40% total damage. On boss mobs, depending on how much boss you have extreme archery is more or less an additional 40% boss line, If you already have a ton of % boss, the 40% increase does not do as much justice as one may assume. Since the majority of funded players have ~200% boss and maybe ~20% total damage from link skills the 40% damage would up the multiplier from 3.2 (1+2.2) to 3.6 (1+2.6). To calculate the impact of extreme archery on a player with the listed stats: 3.6/3.2 = 1.125 = 12.5% damage increase.

In other words, on a bowmaster with 200% boss and 20% total from link skills extreme archery only increases damage output by 12.5%. So even with the visual range of a bm being higher than a mm, their extreme archery buff is total damage and the visual difference does not apply with how damage is to be calculated on boss monsters. You also have to take into consideration that marksmen have more pdr from skills than bowmasters so less lines on their weapon/ secondary will need to be used for pdr. Also, a marksman with enough funding for a 1mil+ range should be near 100% between hypers/ link skills/ character cards/ inner abilities. Not to account for the fact that a marksman's distancing ability also adds a good amount of total damage when the player uses the propper hit boxes.

Math source (Since I am no math wiz..) http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2850903

Reply December 19, 2014 - edited

bluebomber24

@betaboi101:
A BM can get up to 98-99% Crit rate for free without any funding advantage loss. So I am not sure what Max crit rate has to do with anything. Simply switching to bowamster also doesn't say much, as equips and etc make an important difference for each class. If you just threw weapons that was similary potted like a MM on a BM, the BM of the past will definitely perform lackluster, as demonstrated by Elufu's damage calculator in the past. Unless you have data on everything that you did with this change, you shouldnt really be basing your observations purely on a job change; there are just way too many variables. For example, one of my first questions would be if you actually increased your crit rate to its maximum free potential, because as you mentioned that makes a HUGE difference when comparing the two, which again can be seen and demonstrated in Elufu's calculator. Further, depending on when this Job Change was, MMs DPM was greater than BMs anyway which at THAT time funding for a BM was more important. That is not to case with the BM and MM of today, which is why the argument is outdated.

As I stated earlier, BM and MM have comparable dpm, making range and capping irrelevant. Range means very little ESPEICALLY after this update. It is highly possible for a MM with a lower range to outdpm a BM. In KMST the Extreme Archery buff was calculated to for the most part overcome the nerf to blaster and moving of Hurricane. It wasn't until split Hurricane became 65% in the following KMST, that BMs actually experienced a buff. All that 40% is doing is padding (inaccurately) the range number when realistically by itself it does little when compared to the old BM. [b]I would be utterly shocked if a MM could't outdpm a BM with a lower range[/b]; but that has absolutely nothing to do with funding. Range does not tell you the whole story, range is not even reflected accurately compared to how the game calculates it. That is why the focus should be on DPM.

To put it in an example, because I tend to have typos and not make sense, lets pretend that BMs and MMs have the EXACT same DPM. Now, lets say the MMs range is 1.2M, now because of Extreme Archery, the BM's range has to be 1.68M. Thus, the MM CAN solo bosses with less range, but that has nothing to do with funding and more to do with the how skills are affecting them. A MM should ALWAYS have a lower range than an equally funded BM.

Reply December 19, 2014 - edited

betaboi101

@bluebomber24:

Bms do not have compareable dpm with marksmen as far as cost efficiency goes. Way back in the day, I used to main a marksman and had around a 1.1milish range (give or take) and because of the high max crit rate, was able to cap on certain hits. About a year or so later, I took advantage of the newly implemented open job advancement to test out a bowmaster. At the time, I had a 2m-2m range on the marksman and was able to do the majority of bosses (with the exception of chaos vellum and I had difficulty with hard magnus without a binder). When I switched to the bowmaster, I noticed a drastic decrease in damage. I went from hitting 300-400mils with snipe (note that my % boss/ dex/ % att was pretty under average compared to now a days at the time and I really didn't need ridiculous equips to reach 400mil on low pdr/ non elemental resist bosses) to hitting barely ~9 mil with hurricane and even less with the old blaster (~5-6mils). With the recent revamp bowmasters have gained attack as well as a 40% damage boost and a boost of hurricane damage (since split cane adds 65% of 300% and I'm pretty sure before this hurricane was a bit less % wise). So assumingly hurricane is two hits of 195% damage. Judging from the old scenario, I would have gone from hitting ~9mils with hurricane to around two hits of around 12.6mils given the 40% damage skill is activated (on bosses, the 40% damage boost is much less because it gets summed with boss damage so the 3.6 mil increase on REGULAR mobs is much higher than what would have been gained given boss damage was applied). On hoh, future perion, or stronghold mobs at the time, I hit around ~200-300mils per hit of snipe depending on the distance.

Basically, my point is that for the average mapler that will more than likely not reach a 2m-2m range; at a 2m-2m range now a days, a marksman would be able to hit 200-300mils on boss mobs and 300-400mils on bosses that don't have high pdr or elemental resistance while a similarly funded bowmaster with the SAME funding and range would be hitting 2 hits of 12.6mil on boss mobs with their damage skill. For whatever reason, back then it felt like boss damage really didn't increase hurricane as much as it should have. I believe back then I had maybe 140%ish boss with the second or first dojo gloves and hurricane only seemed to stagnate in the lower 16-20 mils.

(the 140% yielded a 7 mil increase. 7mil/1.4 = 5 mil per 100% boss; 5/10 = .5mil for 10% * 4 = 2mil) The 40% damage boost would have upped my hurricane damage by around 2 mil per hit. Note that with this example my bow was also primed at the time while my xbow was scrolled with 50%s 5 att scrolls meaning that the bowmaster had an initial higher range than the marksman but was hitting significantly less. The bowmaster also had a much better secondary than the marksman. Even with the applied 40% damage boost and hurricane revamp, the bowmaster with the listed funds that I mentioned would not be able to efficiently solo many end game bosses that the marksman would be able to take on at a significantly lower range.

Reply December 18, 2014 - edited

bluebomber24

@betaboi101: When you have comparable dpm, what damage % buffs and others skills a class have is irrelevant in the funding comparison. Because a community feels, does not mean it is so.

Bm has comparable dpm with MM without capping. If a MM can do 400mil at X range, the question isn't wheter a BM is capping, the question is wheter the BM at that same comprable range hits/s is close/equal/greater than the 400mil output. Capping just means your funding can start to become wasted, not that another class requires more funding.

Reply December 18, 2014 - edited

betaboi101

[quote=bluebomber24]The funding for which class to play is actually outdated. the only Funding aspects that I see as an issue is Bow vs Xbow (weapons) and 95-99% Crit rate versus 100% Crit Rate. Outside of that funding is pretty moot.[/quote]

Funding is not necessarily an outdated argument. For one, if you look at the majority of phantom threads, you see a lot of post "nerf" phantoms complaining that phantoms are "hard to fund". Phantoms in reality are somewhat on par with bowmasters in that they have hits per second potential (though with the recent patch, bowmasters have been improved now that final attack activates with blaster and with double hurricane). Phantoms have an 80% damage buff (cross over chains) yet the majority of the community still feels as though the low percentage of a phantoms attacks are still hard to be able to make much of an impact with. Likewise, bowmasters now have their 40% damage buff however, funding one is still more or less on par with funding a strong phantom. As a bowmaster, you need much more dex and attack stats to be on par with a marksman. A marksman with a ~1.3milish range can occasionally hit their 400mil cap. A bowmaster with max visual range (2m-2m) still requires a lot more stats before being able to cap with double hurricane. When a marksman starts seeing larger numbers with snipe, they can potentially chaos root abyss solo. A bowmaster needs a much higher range before being able to accomplish the same feat in a reasonable amount of time.

In all honesty, I hate when people bring up the aspect of "you need funds to be good". Bowmasters like kaisers, phantoms, mercedes, and quite a few other dps classes are just one of those classes that you really need to fund an arm and a leg for. If damage is not a concern then by all means it should be about the individuals preference.

Reply December 18, 2014 - edited

PineSawl

Try not to think about damage, just think about which character you'd have the most fun with. Also if you job change at 100 it won't cost that much meso anyways. If you like a little more speed/dps/hurricane type skills, obviously BM is your choice. If you don't really care about speed, but want to see numbers and don't mind that your mob attacks that are linear and an ice bird (Articuno ftw) pick MM.

Reply December 18, 2014 - edited

bluebomber24

The funding for which class to play is actually outdated. the only Funding aspects that I see as an issue is Bow vs Xbow (weapons) and 95-99% Crit rate versus 100% Crit Rate. Outside of that funding is pretty moot.

Reply December 18, 2014 - edited

shalazaar

I have to say I like my bowmaster its just the animations are ugly lol for arrow stream and hurricane thats the only negatives for me