General

@TrueAthiest: Just stop trying to convince people to be pro-choice. People are going to have moral convictions with aborting a fetus whether you call it a human or not.

That being said, I'm pro-choice but against abortion.

[quote=Perreh]There's always a chance that the baby you aborted had huge potential.[/quote]

That goes both ways, the baby could have also grown up to be the next Hitler or a serial killer.

[quote=Dorks]@Laker1294: You said "There should be a more severe punishment for abortion..so people would reconsider their decision.."
So again, you think people would get abortions just because there's no punishment atm? I don't really get what you're saying, but people abort for different reasons. The husband's unborn child for one had the mermaid disease, it would have been born with missing organs and legs fused together with 100% death once born.
I guess I should add onto why I picked to be pro-choice. Having safe methods to abort the fetus over outlawing it outright is better than making the women that are set on abortion take matters in their own hands.[/quote]

I did have exceptions though if you read my first post. Severely disabled is one of them.

@Laker1294: You said "There should be a more severe punishment for abortion..so people would reconsider their decision.."
So again, you think people would get abortions just because there's no punishment atm? I don't really get what you're saying, but people abort for different reasons. The husband's unborn child for one had the mermaid disease, it would have been born with missing organs and legs fused together with 100% death once born.
I guess I should add onto why I picked to be pro-choice. Having safe methods to abort the fetus over outlawing it outright is better than making the women that are set on abortion take matters in their own hands.

Pro-choice is not anti-life, and pro-life isn't anti-choice.

[quote=ikea12311]Human life is objectively "equal". Subjectively, it isn't.

For example, you value your own life more than the life of a stranger. Why? Because its your life.
Similarly, a mother may value her life more than her child, or value her childs life more than hers. It's a matter of choice.

It's important that we do not judge human life on value or rights, or make any comparison at all. At the end of the day, society should not say whos life is more valued (when do we draw the line?). Only the mother should, because she is a carrier of the baby. She is the only person physically affected.

Quite frankly, i don't believe ANY biological organism has an inherent right to life. Life is a matter of circumstance and conditions, not a matter of "oh look an invisible scroll says i can".[/quote]

Ah I see. Okay here's a tricky scenario for you.

A mother is giving birth, she goes unconscious during the pregnancy and the doctors determine that if they perform a C-Section she will die but the baby will live. They also determine that if they just yank the baby out - killing it, the baby will die but the mother will live.

The doctor's are forced to choose between the baby and the mother and the mother is unconscious and can't give her consent to anything - Who do you think the doctors should save?

[quote=TrueAtheist]The child will be born with the same health in both scenarios. You don't get to add an extra variable to my question.

So taking into account that they will both be born healthy, which scenario do you choose? You have to pick one, only one.[/quote]

I chose scenario B if the mother tells child B about her abortion and if the child becomes a good person/citizen. If not, A. It really depends.

Edit: sorry..I think there's already too many ungrateful spoiled people in this world. I realized that in scenario A you aren't really depriving child B because they haven't been born or will be born and the mother didn't get an abortion.

[quote=Laker1294]She's not of legal age yet (18) so someone still has to take care of her. I choose plan B..if the child isn't healthy in plan A. I choose plan A if the child isn't healthy in plan B.[/quote]

The child will be born with the same health in both scenarios. You don't get to add an extra variable to my question.

So taking into account that they will both be born healthy, which scenario do you choose? You have to pick one, only one.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Their parents died the day before the girl got pregnant in a tragic car accident.

(This form of argumentation can go on forever, make your point!)[/quote]

She's not of legal age yet (18) so someone still has to take care of her. I choose plan B..if the child isn't healthy in plan A. I choose plan A if the child isn't healthy in plan B.

[quote=Laker1294]How are they in school? If they're orphans? Unless they live in an orphanage or with other relatives.[/quote]

Their parents died the day before the girl got pregnant in a tragic car accident.

(This form of argumentation can go on forever, make your point!)

@ikea12311 I agree with most of what you said, but do you think that a fetus holds equal human-value as a 5 year old child? If you want to advocate for the preservation of human life in all forms, but then say that abortion should be allowed if the life of the mother is in danger, then you are holding the life of the mother to a higher standard and degree of "humanness" than that of the fetuses; thus implying that the fetus is less of a human than a human, and further implying that it should hold less of a value to us.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Yes she used the morning after-pill, but it didn't work.

Their parents are dead. They have no other support structure for the child besides themselves, that's why they would be forced to drop out of school and work at a crappy job just to barely be able to afford diapers.

Now come on, I know you're reasonable enough to at least [b]consider[/b] abortion in this situation. Do you see why people advocate choice? It's not that people are pro-abortion, it's that they are pro-choice, they think the mother should decide when it's best. Because in a situation like this, scenario B) is clearly the better alternative.[/quote]

How are they in school? If they're orphans? Unless they live in an orphanage or with other relatives.

Edit: what about the guy? Does he have a scholarship too?

[quote=Laker1294]May I ask about the girl's and the guy's parents? They could help take care of the child. Also did she try using the morning after pill?[/quote]

Yes she used the morning after-pill, but it didn't work.

Their parents are dead. They have no other support structure for the child besides themselves, that's why they would be forced to drop out of school and work at a crappy job just to barely be able to afford diapers.

Now come on, I know you're reasonable enough to at least [b]consider[/b] abortion in this situation. Do you see why people advocate choice? It's not that people are pro-abortion, it's that they are pro-choice, they think the mother should decide when it's best. Because in a situation like this, scenario B) is clearly the better alternative.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Alright here's the thing. I'm going to give you two scenarios, tell me which one you think is better.

A young girl, 17 years old, is in a committed relationship with her boyfriend of 2 years. They decide to have sex and use all the proper precautions, he uses a condom and she is on the pill. She also has aspirations of being a doctor one day and has a full scholarship to university. The unthinkable happens, she gets pregnant despite the safety precautions she took. She isn't sexually promiscuous at all, she was having sex while in a committed relationship.

She has two options.

A) Have the child, forcing her and her boyfriend to both drop out of school in order to work at crappy minimum wage jobs in order to support their child who they don't want to give it up for adoption because where they live the adoption agencies are overflowing and the foster kids live in horrible neighborhoods and are destined for horrible lives. This scenario means the child will grow up poor, with parents who are stuck working at McDonalds and who can barely support the child.

B) Making a serious and difficult decision, the mother and father decide to abort the child taking everything into account. They think it's best that they wait until they are older to have a child, when they have proper jobs and can properly support and take care of it. The couple stays together until they are in their late twenties. The father is working at a bank, and the mother becomes a doctor. They then decide to have their child. They only want one child mind you. But they chose to have the child at a time in their lives when they wanted one, and when they were prepared for one. Rather than have it at a time in their lives when they were not prepared for one.

Now I want you to choose A) or B). Which scenario do you think is more beneficial to the child, and to the family as a whole?

Mind you, no child was killed, in both scenarios there is 1 child being born. If you choose scenario 1 then you are depriving the world of the child in scenario 2, if you choose scenario 2 you are depriving the world of the child in scenario 1.[/quote]

May I ask about the girl's and the guy's parents? They could help take care of the child. Also did she try using the morning after pill?

Edit: I know of someone who had parents that had them at 16 (overheard their conversation). The father took responsibility and he married a different woman. They have a middle class income. I would know because she doesn't dress poorly and her possessions aren't of poor quality.

[quote=Laker1294]Yes but it's not realistic.. Society isn't like that (always has a good environment). Some children who suffer are more wise than the ones who don't suffer and are empathetic/sympathetic. No pain = no gain. Regardless of their environment I believe they should still have a chance to succeed in life.

Edit: some are also more appreciative.[/quote]

Alright here's the thing. I'm going to give you two scenarios, tell me which one you think is better.

A young girl, 17 years old, is in a committed relationship with her boyfriend of 2 years. They decide to have sex and use all the proper precautions, he uses a condom and she is on the pill. She also has aspirations of being a doctor one day and has a full scholarship to university. The unthinkable happens, she gets pregnant despite the safety precautions she took. She isn't sexually promiscuous at all, she was having sex while in a committed relationship.

She has two options.

A) Have the child, forcing her and her boyfriend to both drop out of school in order to work at crappy minimum wage jobs in order to support their child who they don't want to give it up for adoption because where they live the adoption agencies are overflowing and the foster kids live in horrible neighborhoods and are destined for horrible lives. This scenario means the child will grow up poor, with parents who are stuck working at McDonalds and who can barely support the child.

B) Making a serious and difficult decision, the mother and father decide to abort the child taking everything into account. They think it's best that they wait until they are older to have a child, when they have proper jobs and can properly support and take care of it. The couple stays together until they are in their late twenties. The father is working at a bank, and the mother becomes a doctor. They then decide to have their child. They only want one child mind you. But they chose to have the child at a time in their lives when they wanted one, and when they were prepared for one. Rather than have it at a time in their lives when they were not prepared for one.

Now I want you to choose A) or B). Which scenario do you think is more beneficial to the child, and to the family as a whole?

Mind you, no child was killed, in both scenarios there is 1 child being born. If you choose scenario 1 then you are depriving the world of the child in scenario 2, if you choose scenario 2 you are depriving the world of the child in scenario 1.

[quote=Dorks][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo]So you think that people get abortions without considering anything?[/url][/quote]

I never said that I thought that people get abortions without considering anything. o.o

[quote=Laker1294]There should be a more severe punishment for abortion..so people would reconsider their decision..[/quote]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo]So you think that people get abortions without considering anything?[/url]

[quote=TrueAtheist]Would you agree that children should be born into the best and most healthy environment possible for them? To maximize their chances of living a good life.[/quote]

Yes but it's not realistic.. Society isn't like that (always has a good environment). Some children who suffer are more wise than the ones who don't suffer and are empathetic/sympathetic. No pain = no gain. Regardless of their environment I believe they should still have a chance to succeed in life.

Edit: some are also more appreciative.

[quote=Laker1294]Well I admit that I don't know much about sperm because I'm not a male. A female usually only has one egg at a time in her uterus. Also there are kids with disadvantages in this world and have the chance to live but aren't as successful or less likely to be successful. Like those sperm (at a disadvantage) they still have a chance of making to the egg.[/quote]

Would you agree that children should be born into the best and most healthy environment possible for them? To maximize their chances of living a good life.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Not every sperm gets an equal opportunity. lol this might sound gross and vivid, but some might splash against the walls and not get equal momentum, every drop gets released with a different velocity.

Also, you're saying you wouldn't want a weak child in this world. So are you saying kids who are born with disabilities like autism or downs syndrome should be aborted?

EDIT: Oh just rechecked that post, I see your view on it.[/quote]

Well I admit that I don't know much about sperm because I'm not a male. A female usually only has one egg at a time in her uterus. Also there are kids with disadvantages in this world and have the chance to live but aren't as successful or less likely to be successful. Like those sperm (at a disadvantage) they still have a chance of making to the egg.

[quote=Laker1294]It depends if the sperm is strong enough or not. You wouldn't want a weak child in this world. Some sperm are deformed..(some parts missing or 1 or more tails). I learned it in health.[/quote]

Not every sperm gets an equal opportunity. lol this might sound gross and vivid, but some might splash against the walls and not get equal momentum, every drop gets released with a different velocity.

Also, you're saying you wouldn't want a weak child in this world. So are you saying kids who are born with disabilities like autism or downs syndrome should be aborted?

EDIT: Oh just rechecked that post, I see your view on it.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Why don't you feel the same way about the millions of sperm that never make it to the egg? Each sperm had the potential to bond with the egg and begin conception.

Each sperm is a potentially different baby that are being disallowed to come into the world.[/quote]

It depends if the sperm is strong enough or not. You wouldn't want a weak child in this world. Some sperm are deformed..(some parts missing or 2 or more tails). I learned it in health.

Edit: if you read my first post in this thread I mentioned exceptions.

[quote=Laker1294]I know it's not the same thing but I still believe it should be given a chance to live life..[/quote]

Why don't you feel the same way about the millions of sperm that never make it to the egg? Each sperm had the potential to bond with the egg and begin conception.

Each sperm is a potentially different baby that are being disallowed to come into the world.

Why don't they deserve a chance?

[quote=TrueAtheist]A stage of development isn't the same thing as the finished product.

A brick and some cement isn't the same thing as a finished house.

Writing "The" on a piece of paper isn't the same thing as a finished essay.[/quote]

I know it's not the same thing but I still believe it should be given a chance to live life..

[quote=Laker1294]It a stage of developing into a person..so in a way yes.[/quote]

A stage of development isn't the same thing as the finished product.

A brick and some cement isn't the same thing as a finished house.

Writing "The" on a piece of paper isn't the same thing as a finished essay.

[quote=TrueAtheist]So you would agree that a fetus isn't a person, it's a potential person, right?[/quote]

It a stage of developing into a person..so in a way yes.

[quote=Laker1294]It takes time for a child to grow inside the woman and I'm not against master debating. Only 1 sperm can succeed unless there's more than one cell.[/quote]

So you would agree that a fetus isn't a person, it's a potential person, right?

[quote=TrueAtheist]My mistake, that was spring786 who said smokers should be arrested.

Alright let's examine your position. "People shouldn't kill [b]someone[/b] who is innocent".

Insentient cells are 'someone'? Are the cells on your skin someone too? Because technically they possess the genetic material potential of becoming a human being.

Are you also against master debating? Millions of potential lives are killed every time a guy does.[/quote]

It takes time for a child to grow inside the woman and I'm not against master debating. Only 1 sperm can succeed unless there's more than one cell.

Edit: there are different types of cells and they have different purposes.

[quote=Laker1294]It's because I'm pro life..and I believe that people shouldn't kill someone who is innocent and hasn't had a chance to live life.

Edit: I never said smokers should be arrested. You must have mistaken me for someone else.[/quote]

My mistake, that was spring786 who said smokers should be arrested.

Alright let's examine your position. "People shouldn't kill [b]someone[/b] who is innocent".

Insentient cells are 'someone'? Are the cells on your skin someone too? Because technically they possess the genetic material potential of becoming a human being.

Are you also against master debating? Millions of potential lives are killed every time a guy does.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

While it does kill children, there's a bad side to it. It gives women a choice.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Why should people receive [b]severe[/b] punishment for having an abortion?... You haven't made a case as to why you think abortion should be held at a different standard compared to everything else in the world.

You want to punish people for unintended consequences of having sex.

I'm sure as heck glad you're not in a position of power in the legislative branch.[/quote]

It's because I'm pro life..and I believe that people shouldn't kill someone who is innocent and hasn't had a chance to live life.

Edit: I never said smokers should be arrested. You must have mistaken me for someone else.

[quote=Laker1294]There should be a more severe punishment for abortion..so people would reconsider their decision..[/quote]

Why should people receive [b]severe[/b] punishment for having an abortion?... You haven't made a case as to why you think abortion should be held at a different standard compared to everything else in the world.

You want to punish people for unintended consequences of having sex.

I'm sure as heck glad you're not in a position of power in the legislative branch.

EDIT: lol I just realized you're the same person who said smokers should be arrested, I shouldn't have taken your extremist views seriously.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Okay.. so if you agree that there are consequences for abortion, then what exactly are you arguing?[/quote]

There should be a more severe punishment for abortion..so people would reconsider their decision..

[quote=Laker1294]I never said that they're aren't any consequences for abortion. Also if you kill someone in a car crash you're sentence to jail for manslaughter.[/quote]

Okay.. so if you agree that there are consequences for abortion, then what exactly are you arguing?

[quote=TrueAtheist]And you could say the same exact thing about getting into a car crash and having to pay the bill or having your insurance go up.. if you're rich it won't affect you.

You said there's no punishments for an abortion, the fact that it costs several-hundred dollars is a punishment.

Your point is refuted.[/quote]

I never said that they're aren't any consequences for abortion. Also if you kill someone in a car crash you're sentence to jail for manslaughter.

[quote=Laker1294]Some people don't care about the fetus and don't feel/live with guilt .so I think they deserve a worse punishment..in order to learn from their mistake..

Edit: they could also have a high income and a several hundred dollars could be worth nothing to them...as well.[/quote]

And you could say the same exact thing about getting into a car crash and having to pay the bill or having your insurance go up.. if you're rich it won't affect you.

You said there's no punishments for an abortion, the fact that it costs several-hundred dollars is a punishment.

Your point is refuted.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Are you saying people who get abortions don't have any consequences associated with it?

Hm let's see, [b]how about the fact they had to get an abortion.[/b]

Abortions cost several-hundred dollars first of all, and they have to live with the guilt associated with it.[/quote]

Some people don't care about the fetus and don't feel/live with guilt .so I think they deserve a worse punishment..in order to learn from their mistake..

Edit: they could also have a high income and a several hundred dollars could be worth nothing to them...as well.

[quote=Laker1294]The person with the broken leg still has to live with the consequences (doctor bill and a broken leg). I never said people should have sex only for procreation and I never said that I was against casual sex. The person involved in the car crash still has to exchange info (punishment) and the one who is at fault has to pay for the damages if they dont have liablity insurance done to both cars and if they do they have to pay for their car. If a person is injured or killed they would have a worse punishment. Either scenario people are punished but in different ways.

Edit: I am aware of plan B but it's more complicated. Condoms and pills combined aren't 100% guaranteed at least not yet.[/quote]

Are you saying people who get abortions don't have any consequences associated with it?

Hm let's see, [b]how about the fact they had to get an abortion.[/b]

Abortions cost several-hundred dollars first of all, and they have to live with the guilt associated with it.

Eh, what if the woman partook in non-consensual sex and now she's forced to carry the child of her rapist?

[quote=TrueAtheist]So you're contradicting yourself. On one hand you say people should have to live with the consequences of their actions, but now you're saying "well it depends".

What your failing to realize is that consequences can be completely out of our hands, no matter how much you prepare for something, stuff can and will still happen. Surprises happen, and outcomes can differ from expectations.

lol.. are you even reading what you're saying, you're saying anyone who doesn't want a child should get their tubes tied or have a vasectomy? Are you serious? Are you completely unaware that people have casual sex? Are you unaware of contraceptive measures such as condoms, the pill, and plan B?

People [b]do[/b] take preventive measures to have kids, but sometimes the girl will get pregnant anyways. Now you're holding pregnancy to a completely different standard to everything else in the world such as driving a car, rock climbing, playing extreme sports, because you are biased against casual sex.

That is where your real concern lies, you're living in a fantasy world where you think people should only have sex to procreate, you have to realize that that's not the world we live in.[/quote]

The person with the broken leg still has to live with the consequences (doctor bill and a broken leg). I never said people should have sex only for procreation and I never said that I was against casual sex. The person involved in the car crash still has to exchange info (punishment) and the one who is at fault has to pay for the damages if they dont have liablity insurance done to both cars and if they do they have to pay for their car. If a person is injured or killed they would have a worse punishment. Either scenario people are punished but in different ways.

Edit: I am aware of plan B but it's more complicated. Condoms and pills combined aren't 100% guaranteed at least not yet.

[quote=Laker1294]No. They made a minor mistake. I know that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes (well at least most humans).

Edit: They are already punished because they have to live with a broken leg for awhile and pay for the surgery. While people could get a 1 time process done to prevent pregnancy (tubes tied and/or vasectomy) and not have to worry about having a child.[/quote]

So you're contradicting yourself. On one hand you say people should have to live with the consequences of their actions, but now you're saying "well it depends".

What your failing to realize is that consequences can be completely out of our hands, no matter how much you prepare for something, stuff can and will still happen. Surprises happen, and outcomes can differ from expectations.

lol.. are you even reading what you're saying, you're saying anyone who doesn't want a child should get their tubes tied or have a vasectomy? Are you serious? Are you completely unaware that people have casual sex? Are you unaware of contraceptive measures such as condoms, the pill, and plan B?

People [b]do[/b] take preventive measures to have kids, but sometimes the girl will get pregnant anyways. Now you're holding pregnancy to a completely different standard to everything else in the world such as driving a car, rock climbing, playing extreme sports, because you are biased against casual sex.

That is where your real concern lies, you're living in a fantasy world where you think people should only have sex to procreate, you have to realize that that's not the world we live in.

[quote=ikea12311]Guys, killing the fetus with a coat hanger is disgusting.
Eating it afterwards is even worst.

How can society even allow this? You people disgust me.

Next thing you know, we will be euthanizing retards, gypsies and people who are annoying.[/quote]

That's society for you and I agree..that it's disgusting..

[quote=TrueAtheist]So someone who goes rock climbing and breaks their leg should be denied surgery to fix it because they should have known the consequences of rock climbing?[/quote]

No. They made a minor mistake. I know that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes (well at least most humans).

Edit: They are already punished because they have to live with a broken leg for awhile and pay for the surgery. While people could get a 1 time process done to prevent pregnancy (tubes tied and/or vasectomy) and not have to worry about having a child.

Pro-choice.

[quote=Laker1294]Having sex and driving a car are both choices. You don't need to do either to survive. It depends on who's at fault in an accident and the person who is at fault needs to take responsibility for their actions or they have a worse punishment. Liscence revoked, etc depending on if someone was killed/injured or not. There are also other methods that would help such as tubes tied and vasectomy. They could have done either of those methods or both so they don't have to worry about having a child.[/quote]

So someone who goes rock climbing and breaks their leg should be denied surgery to fix it because they should have known the consequences of rock climbing?

[quote=TrueAtheist]I'm sorry but I just don't agree with, nor do I understand that logic.

Using your line of reasoning I could say "I don't care if people drive a car, even if they used protection like wearing a seat belt and driving the speed limit, if they get in a car crash they should be responsible for their actions", implying nobody should help them and they should have to deal with it on their own.

Because you know, they knew the risks of driving when they got in the vehicle.

Forcing a child to be born into this world to parents that don't want them, and to grow up with statistically far lower socioeconomic circumstances, is just as cruel - if not more cruel than aborting an acclamation of insentient cells.[/quote]

Having sex and driving a car are both choices. You don't need to do either to survive. It depends on who's at fault in an accident and the person who is at fault needs to take responsibility for their actions or they have a worse punishment. Liscence revoked, etc depending on if someone was killed/injured or not. There are also other methods that would help such as tubes tied and vasectomy. They could have done either of those methods or both so they don't have to worry about having a child.

[quote=Laker1294]I care about the fetus. I don't like it when people don't take responsibility for their actions. I never said people shouldn't have sex. If they did they should be aware of the risk of having a baby and be prepared for it even if they did use protection because it's not 100% guaranteed chance that the woman wouldnt get pregnant.[/quote]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with, nor do I understand that logic.

Using your line of reasoning I could say "I don't care if people drive a car, even if they used protection like wearing a seat belt and driving the speed limit, if they get in a car crash they should be responsible for their actions", implying nobody should help them and they should have to deal with it on their own.

Because you know, they knew the risks of driving when they got in the vehicle.

Forcing a child to be born into this world to parents that don't want them, and to grow up with statistically far lower socioeconomic circumstances, is just as cruel - if not more cruel than aborting an acclamation of insentient cells.

[quote=TrueAtheist]So in other words you want the mother to be punished for getting pregnant.

You don't care about the fetus at all, your real concern is that people shouldn't be having sex.[/quote]

I care about the fetus. I don't like it when people don't take responsibility for their actions. I never said people shouldn't have sex. If they did they should be aware of the risk of having a baby and be prepared for it even if they did use protection because it's not 100% guaranteed chance that the woman wouldnt get pregnant.

[quote=Laker1294]@ilovethemcakes you should visit foster care and see for yourself.

OT: I'm against abortion but I believe that it should be only used if both the mother and child would die and if the child were to be severely handicap or cannot function.. I think people (if they werent r@ped) should take responsibility for their mistakes. At least put the child up for adoption..[/quote]

So in other words you want the mother to be punished for getting pregnant.

You don't care about the fetus at all, your real concern is that people shouldn't be having sex.

[quote=ilovethemcakes]@Laker1294: yeah you dont wanna scare me with that face of yours. -shivers-[/quote]

*shrugs* like I said I don't care what you think of me. I don't want to meet someone who cause drama, seriously.

[quote=ilovethemcakes]@Laker1294: i would say it but then ill get banned so NO[/quote]

Whatever. It's the Internet and I doubt we would ever meet so IDC. Nor do I have the desire to meet up with you.