General

These are pricey and I'm not sure how thick they are but they are heated. I'd like a pair work gloves sport-lover. com

So did this ever reach a consensus?
Wondering if I have <80% crit, then will 5-star tyrant gloves with SE neb and obviously a good pot be better than top-10 dojo gloves?
Since SE raises min-critical, it's literally like 10% boss, but applied to everything. I already have a buttload of boss %, so wondering if it was better.

[quote=nitsua2789]But the increase in range is reflected in your actual damage.... Your actual damage is based on your range, % boss, crit dmg, etc. If you wan't to talk about how % total dmg changes your damage then you have to subtract the range boost out because they're one in the same. So in your example, if the 1000 range is including the 100% dmg buff, then you would only increase your damage by a factor of {real range * (%boss / 100)+1} (in this case 3, (200/100)+1). If you want to include the % total damage bonus to your actual damage then you subtract the range increase to get, as you put it, your "real range" of 500, then you increase the damage by a factor of 5, real range * {(100/100)+1}*{(200/100)+1}. In either case you get 1000(base + total damage) + 500*3 (real range boss damage) = 2500 or 500 (real) + 500 (total dmg boost) + 500*3 (real boss damage) = 2500. This is because as you stated, boss damage and total damage are additive and not multiplicative, therefore boss damage can not have increased gains as a result of total damage (for example some people might think to do 1000 (base) + 1000*3 (boss damage), which would result in a total of 4000 due to boss damage increasing multiplicatively off of total damage).

What you are doing in your calculation is false because in the first example (1000 range with 100% damage and 200% boss) you accounted for the 100% damage twice (in that you stated the range is 1000, even though the true range is 500) which is why it appears to be overly inflated following your logic. You're essentially comparing x * 2 * 2 and x * 2, calling them the same thing, and then blaming the game when the numbers don't turn out right, even though they're obviously different equations.

TLDR : The range increase from % total damage is indicative of the true damage increase, you do not take the range after the increase and then apply the same amount of % total damage to your actual damage, that would be accounting for twice as much total damage which would be incorrect and give you a false result.[/quote]

I don't really know how you reach 2.5k there... 100% damage and 200% boss means your damage will be multiplied by a factor of 4, 500 * 4 = 2k... IF % boss and TD were multiplicative, you'd have a factor of 2 and a factor of 3, meaning 3k range. Your range is displayed accurately when it comes to hitting mobs, but isn't when it comes to bosses. You need to substract whatever range TD gives you (here for example it'd be 1000 - 500 = 500) and then you can find out your real damage on bosses with the (TD+Boss) factor. This is part of why you can hit much higher with tyrant gloves even if you have a lower range, other part being % min/max crit (talking about hitting bosses here, if you can afford tyrant gloves I don't see why you'd care that much about your damage on mobs, except maybe if you train at evo link 9)

[quote=Mirabosh]smh... That's EXACTLY the problem. The tool-tips TAKES TOTAL DAMAGE INTO ACCOUNT, but NOT % boss. Both of them are additive though... Say you have 1000 range with 100% damage and 200% boss. Normally you'd say you should hit 3 times as much on bosses vs mobs right? Well no, you'll only hit double... Because your "real" range is 500, now add 100% dmg with 200% boss, that's 300% total, which means 500 * 4 = 2000. If % total and boss were multiplicative, you'd hit 500 * 2 * 3 = 3000. That's why I said % TD "overly" inflates your range, the % increase in range isn't reflected in your actual damage. I mean it's pretty basic maths here, I don't even know how to explain it. 2*2*2*2*2*2*2 is better than 2+2+2+2+2+2+2? >.<[/quote]

But the increase in range is reflected in your actual damage.... Your actual damage is based on your range, % boss, crit dmg, etc. If you wan't to talk about how % total dmg changes your damage then you have to subtract the range boost out because they're one in the same. So in your example, if the 1000 range is including the 100% dmg buff, then you would only increase your damage by a factor of {real range * (%boss / 100)+1} (in this case 3, (200/100)+1). If you want to include the % total damage bonus to your actual damage then you subtract the range increase to get, as you put it, your "real range" of 500, then you increase the damage by a factor of 5, real range * {(100/100)+1}*{(200/100)+1}. In either case you get 1000(base + total damage) + 500*3 (real range boss damage) = 2500 or 500 (real) + 500 (total dmg boost) + 500*3 (real boss damage) = 2500. This is because as you stated, boss damage and total damage are additive and not multiplicative, therefore boss damage can not have increased gains as a result of total damage (for example some people might think to do 1000 (base) + 1000*3 (boss damage), which would result in a total of 4000 due to boss damage increasing multiplicatively off of total damage).

What you are doing in your calculation is false because in the first example (1000 range with 100% damage and 200% boss) you accounted for the 100% damage twice (in that you stated the range is 1000, even though the true range is 500) which is why it appears to be overly inflated following your logic. You're essentially comparing x * 2 * 2 and x * 2, calling them the same thing, and then blaming the game when the numbers don't turn out right, even though they're obviously different equations.

TLDR : The range increase from % total damage is indicative of the true damage increase, you do not take the range after the increase and then apply the same amount of % total damage to your actual damage, that would be accounting for twice as much total damage which would be incorrect and give you a false result.

[quote=nitsua2789]@ all 4 people who quoted me with corrections about critical damage, I never said anything about critical damage. The gloves I was comparing to had no critical damage. I understand that critical damage does not show in your range. As for the guy who said something about how % total damage "overly inflates" your range, that doesn't change the fact that that's how much range would be lost. The tool-tips account for total damage % when giving you the range difference.[/quote]

smh... That's EXACTLY the problem. The tool-tips TAKES TOTAL DAMAGE INTO ACCOUNT, but NOT % boss. Both of them are additive though... Say you have 1000 range with 100% damage and 200% boss. Normally you'd say you should hit 3 times as much on bosses vs mobs right? Well no, you'll only hit double... Because your "real" range is 500, now add 100% dmg with 200% boss, that's 300% total, which means 500 * 4 = 2000. If % total and boss were multiplicative, you'd hit 500 * 2 * 3 = 3000. That's why I said % TD "overly" inflates your range, the % increase in range isn't reflected in your actual damage. I mean it's pretty basic maths here, I don't even know how to explain it. 2*2*2*2*2*2*2 is better than 2+2+2+2+2+2+2? >.<

@ all 4 people who quoted me with corrections about critical damage, I never said anything about critical damage. The gloves I was comparing to had no critical damage. I understand that critical damage does not show in your range. As for the guy who said something about how % total damage "overly inflates" your range, that doesn't change the fact that that's how much range would be lost. The tool-tips account for total damage % when giving you the range difference.

[quote=DoctorSilent]%all stat + xenon.

i dunno its tough for your class.

i know for the rest of us tyrant might end up being better.[/quote]
found u tao.
suq it

[quote=nitsua2789]Wrong. At 15% 5 stars and 11 atk bonus pot a tyrant glove is -100k range over top 10 gloves for me, -160k from rank 1 gloves. Even if you got it to 15 stars, 21%, 11+atk bonus pot and 4% neb it would probably end up being around 75k better than rank 1 gloves, but then you lose 40% boss damage, so you'd still do less against bosses.[/quote]

um... 15% min/max critical damage isn't supposed to add to your visible range, they just increase your critical damage so you can't really compare critical damage like that, not with your visible range increase or decrease.

[quote=nitsua2789]Wrong. At 15% 5 stars and 11 atk bonus pot a tyrant glove is -100k range over top 10 gloves for me, -160k from rank 1 gloves. Even if you got it to 15 stars, 21%, 11+atk bonus pot and 4% neb it would probably end up being around 75k better than rank 1 gloves, but then you lose 40% boss damage, so you'd still do less against bosses.[/quote]

You can't base yourself on range alone. % dmg overly inflates your range, since it's additive with % boss and most people have way over 300% dmg and boss combined... For example, in the SS I showed above (it was my bishop friend stats that I had input in my sheet), with 15% min and max crit and a 4% all neb, he needed 12 stars tyrant gloves to have higher damage on bosses with them compared to rank 1 dojo, but even 15 star tyrants couldn't beat the range with rank 1 gloves. Also note he doesn't have stellar % boss either... only 267% boss / TD total... and I didn't include any bonus pots, etc.

[quote=nitsua2789]Wrong. At 15% 5 stars and 11 atk bonus pot a tyrant glove is -100k range over top 10 gloves for me, -160k from rank 1 gloves. Even if you got it to 15 stars, 21%, 11+atk bonus pot and 4% neb it would probably end up being around 75k better than rank 1 gloves, but then you lose 40% boss damage, so you'd still do less against bosses.[/quote] For some people boss damage isn't even necessary anymore, the range increases/decreases you gave is only applicable to you and doesn't work like that for everyone. After comparing my 21% luk 5 star enhanced tyrant glove to my rank 1's it only falls short by 2m or so in damage (if i unequip several items since i'm doing cap) and I still haven't done bonus pot/nebbed/enhanced further either. Also as someone mentioned the boss damage/total from dojo gloves don't affect DoT or summon type skills.

Imo, tyrant gloves are only for those with high funds since boss damage/total dmg gives less than what it used due to diminishing returns. However, 8/10 cases dojo gloves are better simply because they're inexpensive to obtain.

[quote=Serenacle]A wild cow has appeared [/quote]
A wild and violent female appeared

[quote=Serenacle]A wild cow has appeared [/quote]

wao go away!

[quote=nitsua2789]Wrong. At 15% 5 stars and 11 atk bonus pot a tyrant glove is -100k range over top 10 gloves for me, -160k from rank 1 gloves. Even if you got it to 15 stars, 21%, 11+atk bonus pot and 4% neb it would probably end up being around 75k better than rank 1 gloves, but then you lose 40% boss damage, so you'd still do less against bosses.[/quote]

that's why you get max/min crit on gloves not.. that all stat crap

[quote=nightpower3]30% of a stat + 5 starred = Better than top 10 glove.

with that information, think about it[/quote]

Wrong. At 15% 5 stars and 11 atk bonus pot a tyrant glove is -100k range over top 10 gloves for me, -160k from rank 1 gloves. Even if you got it to 15 stars, 21%, 11+atk bonus pot and 4% neb it would probably end up being around 75k better than rank 1 gloves, but then you lose 40% boss damage, so you'd still do less against bosses.

People here have no idea about gloves.

Max/Min crit dmg > dojo gloves

http://i.imgur.com/qQEJnJz.jpg

[quote=StraatLamp]Tyrant gloves are worth it to optimize your summon/DoT damage if you already cap.
Since dojo glove' %boss/total damage does not increase DoT/Summon damage, Tyrant gloves' attack/stat will become better.[/quote]

A wild cow has appeared

It's really what you do more, bossing or tyrants but i would prefer if i have enough money training gear and bossing gear. Its rather more effective since ur bossdmg is increased largely

I think the dojo still better

[quote=itoldyounoob]Realistically a xenon can cap way before tyrant gloves are necessary. Because of this, I'd say it's not really worth using the tyrant gloves. If you have the funds to afford that, I would suggest just redistributing it among other 3 tyrants to make them more beneficial to you. On top of that, while dojo gloves are weekily distributed, it's quite easy to obtain weekly. (since you said top50 atleast..) I wouldn't suggest getting the gloves, just because I know many xenons that cap on almost all bosses and hit well on mobs that do not use a tyrant glove.[/quote]

That's definitely true for snipe on non-elemental resist bosses, and definitely not true for beam dance, which takes 3x as much range to cap with. I'm not sure about snipe on elemental resist bosses, which takes 2x as much range.

ok professor

[quote=Jyenna]for people with high %stat & %att the gloves with 120 all stat / 90+ attack will be extremely useful

not to mention %crit damage rolls.[/quote]

Your base stat doesn't affect by how much % your range will increase from % stat, same with attack. Whether you have 1k base stat or 2k base stat, 200% stat will always triple your damage. Also, the more % stat you have, the less overall % damage you'll get from an extra bit of % stat from tyrant gloves, which is why 15% min or max crit are the best lines to get on gloves, min crit being slightly better because it stabilizes your damage and max crit is less useful in a scenario where you hit cap with the max crit but not with min crit.

To really know how many stars you need to beat X dojo glove with X pot, you should just make an excel sheet like this http://fr.tinypic.com/r/nwwsk8/8
It doesn't take much time, it'll calculate everything for you and you'll know if it's worth it or not for you to buy tyrant gloves

for people with high %stat & %att the gloves with 120 all stat / 90+ attack will be extremely useful

not to mention %crit damage rolls.

[quote=XThief]Well compared to dojo top 50 gloves the natural all stat and total dmg is stronger than a 5 starred tyrant glove. Would it be worth it in the end and if it is how many aee's would be needed for it ?[/quote]

If you want a more detailed information, with calculations to back it up, I'd suggest you try asking on SouthPerry instead of BasilMarket.

Here's a link regarding the same topic:
http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=74941

tottally but only to get top 10 glove

According to the calculation by hadriel of SouthPerry, having 30% Min OR Max Critical Damage potential on gloves gives you higher DPS increase than a 30% main stat Gloves if your total main %stat reached a certain threshold.

For more information, refer to http://bit.do/Nwy9

Sorry I had to use a URL shortener, maybe because the URL is too long and Basil deleted some of the text before redirecting causing the link to not work properly.
Don't worry about the WOT Scoreboard and proceed.

If you are still worried about it, just click this link and view post #11
http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=74959&p=1275147&viewfull=1#post1275147

The chart is a little confusing and hard to read at first.

But basically,
Average Crit Damage = Min CritDmg + Max CritDmg / 2
DPS = How much damage is increased
v.s. 10%STAT = A glove (or equip of the same type) with 10% Stat
And the rest is self-explanatory.

For example, if I have 65% min CritDmg and 76% max CritDmg, that means my Average Crit Damage is around 70%.
With a 30% Min or Max CritDmg Potential on my gloves, I would get an additional 15% Average Crit Damage.

15% Average Critical Damage would provide me 8.82% DPS increase and if I have a total of less than 240% Main Stat, a gloves with 30% main stat will still be better than the Gloves with Critical Damage.

Note that this is all calculated before equipping the said equip.

Yes, if you are wondering, if you cube for %crit damage instead of %main stat, your display range will obviously be lower.

Realistically a xenon can cap way before tyrant gloves are necessary. Because of this, I'd say it's not really worth using the tyrant gloves. If you have the funds to afford that, I would suggest just redistributing it among other 3 tyrants to make them more beneficial to you. On top of that, while dojo gloves are weekily distributed, it's quite easy to obtain weekly. (since you said top50 atleast..) I wouldn't suggest getting the gloves, just because I know many xenons that cap on almost all bosses and hit well on mobs that do not use a tyrant glove.

My sw gloves beat the top 10 gloves (mu gong and so gongs) and were barely off par with the top gloves for my main (using the three set sw atm). I can only imagine that tyrant gloves will be that much better especially for a well funded xenon especially if you then were to transepose them to sw gloves for even more all stats/ att/ % all stat potential.

Tyrant gloves are worth it to optimize your summon/DoT damage if you already cap.
Since dojo glove' %boss/total damage does not increase DoT/Summon damage, Tyrant gloves' attack/stat will become better.

I would say no because of the cost to gain ratio when compared to dojo gloves.

Tyrant gloves are only useful for classes with very high limits, like Phantoms and Mercedes. The majority of classes will reach 50 M/line on their main attacking moves long before the boost Tyrant gloves provide over Dojo ones becomes efficient.

Special mention for Xenons, who benefit from the all stat boosts of Tyrants and don't really mind losing the %boss and %total as much from the Dojo gloves.

[quote=nightpower3]30% of a stat + 5 starred = Better than top 10 glove.

with that information, think about it[/quote]

In terms of Range? It's better
In terms of Bossing? I don't think so.

[quote=nightpower3]30% of a stat + 5 starred = Better than top 10 glove.

with that information, think about it[/quote]

That is only including TD/%stat, that isn't including the 25% boss damage which for people who
are stacking % att is a questionable exchange Also how many people have the funds for that,
the 20~30b spent could be going other places.Though if you are already have great gear it would be
nice to have. You would be better off scrolling/cubing a titanium heart~

30% of a stat + 5 starred = Better than top 10 glove.

with that information, think about it

%all stat + xenon.

i dunno its tough for your class.

i know for the rest of us tyrant might end up being better.