General

wow just job change to nl or shad and keep the + 1 attack speed

@goXDS
@duriel123

thank you both for the breakdown of it, the only thing discouraging about the +1 attack speed now is the rarity of the line. I would definitely want %buff duration with the att speed but at legend lines, it takes over 10,000 inner ability points just to lock the +1 attack speed line if i ever end up getting lucky enough to get it lol..

@SUREs: they have literally provided you with the information you needed.
just stop.

@Finalily, the question that the OP asked is not a matter of opinion or preference, but rather one that has an answer which can be found through a little bit of work. I don't see why you are criticizing him/her for trying to analyze the data and come up with a solution to the problem.
@SUREs, don't be discouraged, the people on basil either don't know how, or are too lazy to do basic math. Let me see if I can help you out.

[b] spoiler - +atk speed is much better [/b]

Damage output = Time x DPS
DPS w/o FC = k(100 + %total + %boss), where k is some arbitrary constant

DPS with FC = k(100 + %total + %boss + 60)
DPS with FC = (DPS w/o FC) + 60(k)

Now consider these 2 cases,
Damage output during one cycle of FC with unlimited FC = (DPS with FC)(90s)
Damage output during one cycle of FC with unlimited FC = (DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(90s)

Damage output during one cycle of FC with 15%buff = (DPS with FC)(69s) + (DPS w/o FC)(21s)
Damage output during one cycle of FC with 15%buff = (DPS w/o FC)(69s) + 60(k)(69s) + (DPS w/o FC)(21s)
Damage output during one cycle of FC with 15%buff = (DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(69s)

Now the relative damage increase from 35% buff duration is as the following,

Relative % damage increase = (Damage output during one cycle of FC with unlimited FC) / (Damage output during one cycle of FC with 15%buff) x 100% -100%
Relative % damage increase = ((DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(90s)) / ((DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(69s)) x 100% -100%
Relative % damage increase = ((DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(69s) + 60(k)(21s)) / ((DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(69s)) x 100% -100%
Relative % damage increase = (21s)(60)(k) / ((DPS w/o FC)(90s) + 60(k)(69s)) x 100%
Relative % damage increase = (21s)(60)(k) / (k(100 + %total + %boss + 60)(90s) + 60(k)(69s)) x 100%
Relative % damage increase = (21s)(60) / (100 +%total + %boss)(90s) + 60(69s)) x 100%

As you can see, the relative damage increase depends on the amount of %total/%boss you have. If you for some reason have 0% boss and 0% total, then the relative damage increase would be the greatest, or in other words the 35% buff would be the most valuable.

Relative % damage increase with no boss/total = 9.59%
Relative % damage increase with 100% boss/total = 5.69%
Relative % damage increase with 200% boss/total = 4.05%
Relative % damage increase with 300% boss/total = 3.14%

If the values calculated by @GoXDS for the relative damage increase for +1atk speed are accurate, +1 atk speed is vastly superior to buff duration.

[b]To all you people who said buff duration, do the math first.....[/b]

[quote=Finalily]@SUREs: in every single comment you've made, you have disagreed with everyone about their opinions.

face it, buff duration is better.[/quote]

Why is buff duration better? this is the question i have been asking to everyone essentially. Why is it better? If you interpret these questions as disagreeing elements, i will just move on... I am simply asking for more than just an opinion at this point. Sure, blue is a cooler color than brown, but that isn't the type of input/opinion i was looking for so i ask to get the info i was looking for.

@SUREs: in every single comment you've made, you have disagreed with everyone about their opinions.

face it, buff duration is better.

@SUREs: let's see, if we assume 720ms base, that's 420ms -> 360ms, so that's 16.67% now, yes
@powerguy121 @Finalily and everyone else that has suggested %Buff, I've already illustrated that +1 Attack Speed is MUCH better than %Buff (especially since using other sources, you don't even need all 35%). plus you can lock +1 attack Speed and go for 2nd/3rd Line %Buff

buff duration is better.

[quote=Finalily] you are fighting everyone on this, quite ignorantly I might add.

just go with what you want, and next time, be more open to others opinions.[/quote]

This isn't really about opinion to me, it's more about efficiency/ damage output. And i am not fighting everyone lol, i am asking questions to learn more about it.

@sures you are fighting everyone on this, quite ignorantly I might add.

just go with what you want, and next time, be more open to others opinions.

[quote=GoXDS]@SUREs: you're not even doing the math yourself nor properly understanding what you're reading ._. no it's not always 60 ms and 60 ms means a lot more the lower the delay. so it matters a lot if the delay is 810 base or 720 base. and that 16.7% is NOT the increase in dmg from 1 increase in weapon speed necessarily. Normal 6 -> Fast 5 with 810ms base is 810ms -> 780ms (only 30 ms drop here), which is 3.85% increase. and as I've mentioned earlier, with 810 base, Weapon speed 1 -> 0 is 570ms -> 510ms, a 11.76% increase
compared with 720 base. Normal 6 -> Fast 5 is 720ms -> 690ms, a 4.3% increase (compared to earlier where it was 3.85%) while at 1 -> 0 it's 510ms -> 450ms, a 13.33% increase as mentioned before (compared to 11.76%, too)
again: that 16.7% increase was for Fastest 2 when the delays were changed from 810ms to 720ms delay for PB after a patch, NOT for increase in Attack Speed.[/quote]

yeah it's a ton of numbers and i didn't do it myself haha. Well to put this in my own shoes, i have SW dagger with DSI and green potion of course. I believe fafnir dagger is attack speed of 4. I heard somewhere that the speed cap is already at two, so no lower than that with exception of a green potion to surpass that. So with a 4 speed fafnir dagger with -2 because booster, DB reaches cap. But since i have SW, i should actually have a speed of 1. With green potion, i'd have a speed of 0. DSI, -1, and inner, it'd be -2. i did the little formula and turns out that with the 720 base ms of the revamped PB, the speed buffs would make me attack at 360 ms. My main question was the difference between -2 speed (this is with inner ability) compared to -1 speed (without inner)

@SUREs: you're not even doing the math yourself nor properly understanding what you're reading ._. no it's not always 60 ms and 60 ms means a lot more the lower the delay. so it matters a lot if the delay is 810 base or 720 base. and that 16.7% is NOT the increase in dmg from 1 increase in weapon speed necessarily. Normal 6 -> Fast 5 with 810ms base is 810ms -> 780ms (only 30 ms drop here), which is 3.85% increase. and as I've mentioned earlier, with 810 base, Weapon speed 1 -> 0 is 570ms -> 510ms, a 11.76% increase
compared with 720 base. Normal 6 -> Fast 5 is 720ms -> 690ms, a 4.3% increase (compared to earlier where it was 3.85%) while at 1 -> 0 it's 510ms -> 450ms, a 13.33% increase as mentioned before (compared to 11.76%, too)
again: that 16.7% increase was for Fastest 2 when the delays were changed from 810ms to 720ms delay for PB after a patch, NOT for increase in Attack Speed.

[quote=GoXDS]@SUREs: well, the numbers in that thread was for something completely different. that's for calculating if PB's delay was reduced from 810 to 720 and you're at the same attack speed. if I recalc using 720 for PB's base delay, Attack Speed 0 vs 1 is 13.33%. and all these numbers are way greater than perm FC still.

even assuming you have no %Buff at all except 10% from Empathy. going from 10% Buff to 50% Buff (which is larger than the 35% we'd possibly get from Inner Ability), that's only a 11.11% increase in dmg.
so attack speed +1 > 40% Buff > 35% Buff.
better yet, if you have 0% Buff and want 35% Buff, that 35% Buff is only 10% increase in dmg

and if you really want to know how to calc the %Buff:
assume 10% Buff only. so 66 sec out of 90 you're in FC. 24 out of 90 you're not. in FC you have 1.6x and 1x outside. thus overall dmg is 1.6*(66/90) + 1*(24/90) = 1.44x. if you had perm FC, you'd be at 1.6x the whole time. thus 1.6/1.44 = 1.111111, or 11.11% increase with 40% Buff[/quote]

So based on the math, +1 attack speed would be better right? and about the 810 to 720 delay, i don't think it matters because each 1 attack speed reduces the ms by 60, which they calculated and found out that fast to faster (speed 3 to 2) was a 16.7% difference in DPS. If that sounds confusing, i'll try explaining like this: If we have a weapon on normal speed of 6 and change it to a speed of 5, the 1 attack speed would make the dmg 16.7% in DPS from speed 6. If we then get a speed 4 weapon, it would make the DPS difference of 33.4%. Each speed increase degree of 1 increases the DPS of PB by 16.7%

@SUREs: well, the numbers in that thread was for something completely different. that's for calculating if PB's delay was reduced from 810 to 720 and you're at the same attack speed. if I recalc using 720 for PB's base delay, Attack Speed 0 vs 1 is 13.33%. and all these numbers are way greater than perm FC still.

even assuming you have no %Buff at all except 10% from Empathy. going from 10% Buff to 50% Buff (which is larger than the 35% we'd possibly get from Inner Ability), that's only a 11.11% increase in dmg.
so attack speed +1 > 40% Buff > 35% Buff.
better yet, if you have 0% Buff and want 35% Buff, that 35% Buff is only 10% increase in dmg

and if you really want to know how to calc the %Buff:
assume 10% Buff only. so 66 sec out of 90 you're in FC. 24 out of 90 you're not. in FC you have 1.6x and 1x outside. thus overall dmg is 1.6*(66/90) + 1*(24/90) = 1.44x. if you had perm FC, you'd be at 1.6x the whole time. thus 1.6/1.44 = 1.111111, or 11.11% increase with 40% Buff

[quote=GoXDS]assuming Fast 4 Dagger and DB's attack speed is based on that only, w/ Green Pot, Attack speed is 0 w/ +1 Attack Speed and 1 w/o it.
PB's delays are 510ms and 570ms respectively. that's a 11.76% increase in dmg.
if we assume Mech 15% and Empathy 10% and Merc for 85.5s cd, you have FC for 75s and 10.5s without it excluding charge time. perm FC over this current set up is...4.83% increase in dmg.
well, which would you prefer? plus, why not lock +1 attack Speed and go for 2nd/3rd line %Buff. that's at least 8%[/quote]

There is this thread from southperry i read to check out the numbers, yours are quite different. - http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=71097

[quote=sures] You take the 10 + your attack speed divided by 16 (which is 10 + 6, 6 being the attack speed "Normal" since all delays are at Normal(6), we divide that factor out) and multiply it by the delay, and round the product up to the nearest multiple of 30. To achieve this you can divide by 30, round the result up to the nearest whole number (the ceiling function), and multiply that by 30.

For example, if you were at Faster(2) and your skill had a delay of 810ms, it'd be 810 * (10 + 2)/(10 + 6) = 607.5ms. 607.5/30 =20.25, ceil(20.25) = 21, 21 * 30 = 630ms.

(* Note that because of the 10s, it's theoretically possible to have a speed faster than 0, since 0 is really just 10 *)

In order to calculate the number of attacks per second, you just take 1000ms (1000 milliseconds in 1 second), divided by the new delay value, which in this case is 630ms, and you get 1000/630 = 1.587.

At this point, you multiply by skill %, number of attacks, your range, etc, in order to calculate damage for a given attack.

The damage increase from increase attack speed is of course due to attacking more times per second, so to calculate the damage increase from the delay reduction in Phantom Blow, we find the new attacks per second by doing 720 * (10 + 2)/(10 + 6) = 540ms, 1000/540 = 1.852.

Then we just do the formula for % change, (new - old)/old (or really, just (new/old) - 1), which is 1.852/1.587 - 1 = 1.167 - 1 = 0.167. That's a 16.7% increase in damage at Faster(2). [/quote]

Basically this says that each 1 attack speed, whether passing speed cap or not, adds 16.7% dmg in dps

my question now is if 16.7%+ DPS is better than unlimited FC, which adds 60% dmg on the other 30 seconds which turns it to infinite FC of course.

i feel like the 16.7% increase in DPS would already make up for the other 30 seconds within the 60 second time frame, but i don't know how to do that much math for it lol..

assuming Fast 4 Dagger and DB's attack speed is based on that only, w/ Green Pot, Attack speed is 0 w/ +1 Attack Speed and 1 w/o it.
PB's delays are 510ms and 570ms respectively. that's a 11.76% increase in dmg.
if we assume Mech 15% and Empathy 10% and Merc for 85.5s cd, you have FC for 75s and 10.5s without it excluding charge time. perm FC over this current set up is...4.83% increase in dmg.
well, which would you prefer? plus, why not lock +1 attack Speed and go for 2nd/3rd line %Buff. that's at least 8%

I'd rather have perm final cut instead of +1 att speed.. since phantom blow has good dps

[quote=brendanxd]yea but its harder to get both of them in innerability easier if you just get decent si with green mpe potions, so just sacrifice the 1 attack speed[/quote]

But you can get buff duration via other sources too. Inner ability +1 attack speed would actually change PB's DPS by 16.7%, that's a pretty good amount and it'll be permanent and within that 60 sec of FC, you'll be attacking faster to use more of the FC time

Buff Duration.

+1 one attack speed is a lot harder to get then buff duration . You don't really NEED unlimited fc, but to get close to it you can get the mech card, merc card, and max empathy.

yea but its harder to get both of them in innerability easier if you just get decent si with green mpe potions, so just sacrifice the 1 attack speed

[quote=brendanxd]actually get 35% buff duration and S rank mechanic card with mercedes card and also lvl up your empathy and you should almost have unlimited final cut[/quote]

I know that buff duration will help with infinite final cut but I want to know the damage difference. All i know is that for PB, each 1 attack speed gives an additional 16.7% DPS

actually get 35% buff duration and S rank mechanic card with mercedes card and also lvl up your empathy and you should almost have unlimited final cut

[quote=Gex46]Buff Duration would be better so you can have unlimited FC for a lot more damage vs a bit more speed
There really isn't a way to replace 35% Buff Duration but you could get like dSI for the speed[/quote]

But doesn't speed affect your DPS additively? there shouldn't be a cap on speed after green pot

[quote=razorzed]DB already attack fast, 35% buff duration is more worth it in my opinion because as a DB you know how short those buff durations are T^T but i might be wrong, im just saying to me 35% duration sounds better[/quote]

Yeah for the 30 seconds, you're attacking 60% less dmg, but you can reduce it with mech card and i think traits by up to 10% i believe (i know it's hard to level up traits though)

But for the other 60 seconds of FC, you'll be doing +1 attack speed faster, which i'm actually not sure how much actual time is shaved off of your next attack or how much faster (percentage-wise) it is.

DB already attack fast, 35% buff duration is more worth it in my opinion because as a DB you know how short those buff durations are T^T but i might be wrong, im just saying to me 35% duration sounds better

Buff Duration would be better so you can have unlimited FC for a lot more damage vs a bit more speed
There really isn't a way to replace 35% Buff Duration but you could get like dSI for the speed