General

@FrozenFlameO: so i guessed and nothing...
@magicfrappe: If i understood correctly then i agree.

@dwillss: I'm too lazy to bring up the majority of the controversial threads that consistently show up on basil, but before you once again go "WHO ARE YOU TO SPEAK FFORR RREVERYONE HURRDURRR" Make a educated guess as to why I'm speaking on behalf of the community. Anyway, bye.

The whole point of religion is to rely on faith. So of course there's going to be a lack of evidence.
And also, if an omnipotent being had the abilities to do all of these things, then couldn't it make it to where there was actually doubt and no evidence of its existence?

Just my two cents that'll be ignored in favor of a narrow-minded arguement.

[quote=FrozenFlameO]@dwillss: The more you post, the more this thread comes up in the chat section. Basil is too immature and adolescent for any sort of controversial thread.[/quote]

Ill say this again. Since when do you speak for the community. If anything you bumped this thread after it being inactive for 30min.

@dwillss: The more you post, the more this thread comes up in the chat section. Basil is too immature and adolescent for any sort of controversial thread.

[quote=FrozenFlameO]omg shutup.No one cares about your opinion.[/quote]

omg shutup. why you here. Since when do you speak for the community with your useless post.

[quote=dwillss]When people like you (no knowledge, basic understanding or interpretation) express your corrupt opinion it damages our society.

Me and this fellow @aren: have been able to have a long discussion simply trading thoughts without boldly saying useless ignorant things.[/quote]

omg shutup.No one cares about your opinion.

@DatingAdvice: I'm not trying to disprove anything here, I'm simply stating the reasons as to why I do not believe in God.

Holy..~ This thread grew overnight pretty quickly. I'll try to read over all of your posts

[quote=FruityMott]Well, first, if God, wanted us to have a perfect life, would not have created sin? Sin identifies things like work, labor, competitivity and more as something bad. But in this so-called heaven, there is none. So if we were to have a world with no sin, would there actually be a purpose in life? With out competitivity, there would be no sports, games (OMG NO MS?). Without labour, there would be no purpose. I don't mean the kind of labour that you see in documentaries that make you want to cry your heart out, I mean the kind of labour that we need at our jobs.

And if ever we went to heaven, what would we do? In the bible, it says that heaven is paradise. The complete definition of paradise is "a place of extreme beauty, happiness or joy". Would such a place mean we could do whatever we want? Oh, wait we can't because the majority of us like to play a game that involves killing computer-generated monsters. I don't think God would let us do that in heaven.

OK? Done? Yeah, sure. Let's all go play Maplestory now. -_-[/quote]

When people like you (no knowledge, basic understanding or interpretation) express your corrupt opinion it damages our society.

Me and this fellow @aren: have been able to have a long discussion simply trading thoughts without boldly saying useless ignorant things.

[quote=Hathelian]Just my thoughts:
I think it's really rude how the atheistic community assumes Christians aren't capable of thinking for themselves. I've heard every atheistic argument there is, but I've made a personal decision that I'm going to believe anyway. Atheists present themselves as "free thinkers," but when someone makes the decision to be religious we're suddenly close-minded and ignorant. That's both hypocritical and contradictory to the term "free thinker." A free thinker should be able to choose what path he or she chooses. I just happened to pick the religious route.

Also, you can't hate on Christianity (I know this is a 'religious' discussion, but we all know we're talking about Christians here) without knowing the history and doctrine of the church. Almost every Christian or former Christian here is from a Protestant or Catholic background. There are one, maybe two Orthodox Christians here, and none of them speak up because Christianity has become irreversibly watered-down thanks to historical events such as the reformation and the Great Schism. The Orthodox have teachings that almost all modern Christians (and let me remind you, the Orthodox were the ones who founded the church two thousand years ago) ignore.

For instance: what happens when an unbaptized baby dies? Does it go to Hell?
Orthodoxy says no. There's plenty of teachings that people ignore on the subject.
Another one: where's free will in Christianity if everything is pre-determined by God?
Orthodoxy says that we are given free reign to do whatever we want. We are all given a purpose, but it is our decision to act as we wish until that purpose is fulfilled.

One thing that absolutely grates me, though, is how the atheistic community claims Christians just want money. Have you ever heard of the IOCC? The Orthodox charity that has given over $30 million in relief efforts without trying to convert a single community? The ones that are just doing it from their hearts? I guess all that's irrelevant. Atheists also complain about how churches get off tax-free. Have you ever seen a priest or pastor's salary? It's not much, let me tell you. Money goes to help the expenses of the church, salaries, and events, and the rest goes to charity.
And the Crusades...that just makes me face-palm every time. I hate that people insist on bringing something up that happened a thousand years ago, [i]especially when it was done by an extremist branch that was not at all related to the Orthodox.[/i] It's a cheap shot. The church has apologized for it. Why can't we move on? It can be argued that the secularist mindset in WWII killed far more people. But I know someone will have to disagree and bring it back to Christianity somehow.

I'm tired of playing the "nice and tolerant" game. There's a thousand atheists on this site and I have yet to meet [i]one[/i] that is not completely and utterly condescending. It irritates me. You all can complain about the way Christians present themselves, and that is valid, but don't be a hypocrite. Present yourself nicely for once. Don't act like we're all ignorant. In fact, I've seen just about every religious stereotype played out among atheists as well.
Shape up. Condescension isn't helping your cause. If you want to end religion, at least make your side look appealing. Prove you can share our morals without sharing the religion. Because let me tell you, you aren't doing a great job so far.
/endannoyedrant[/quote]

someone is just really mad. lern2tryharder

@aren: Christianity is what you become a part of after you are born again. Its not a label to what you believe but who you've become. (a part of christ)
Those listed religions our mans interpretation of the bible itself.

Regarding wiki i agree.

Yes Christianity as we know it in NA is very religious. Even when i was a so called Christian i was against religion. that's why gave it up. Lost all motivation.

Still haven't formulated a belief on any omniscient forces out there but I'm starting to come to terms with "tao"

[quote=dwillss]Just a pointer to all the so called atheist out there. There is no such thing as an atheist.
Atheist is contradicting.
It means you don't believe in anything, but to believe in nothing requires a BELIEF in nothing. Therefore your an agnostic.
Also to be able to claim your an atheist you must have all the knowledge in the world to be certain that no god exist.[/quote]

failed logic good sir
atheist is no belief in a god, gods or omnipotent beings.
The concept you placed was indeed contradictive but it was not a correct definition of the word presented.
I happen to be an off branch of atheism, I am a moralist. I do because it is right, not for fear of otherworldly justice or an inability to gain access to a beautiful kingdom. I enjoy the christian ideals but I stick to those that make sense to me, god does not make sense to me or anyone, that is why I choose to disbelieve his/her existance.

@aren: i think were having 2 different arguments. It may have sounded like my arguments are directed towards religion, but Christianity in itself is not a religion. (baptist, catholic... etc) are a branch religion. Religion corrupts society, also it is a man made interpretation of things all of which fits the taste of certain individuals.

If you state to be atheist that brings me back to my first couple post.
"Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence" Credits to wiki.

Your second paragraph brings me back to my very first post where i said the reason why i gave up my faith is because the way our society portrays Christianity.
Here in Canada and also in america the Christianity you and i know is crap and polluted and all about self justification.

@Aren: Science is wrong every single day. Like someone else posted science and religion don't go together.
God does have the liberty to harm people but that would stand against everything hes said. Just like Obama and the military has the liberty to end america as we know it.
Im sorry but i don't see where God stated he wants man separated from woman. The bible strongly speaks of the beauty of marriage.
And your last paragraph if you start up your nation you can do those things but they are morally wrong of course its ridiculous.

To understand religion you cant just study religion. You need a deep understanding of religion, history, geography, mathematics, philosophy etc.

[quote=Demonlord]@SoggyToast: Make it something unique, special, different, or something most people are afraid to say.
Otherwise, it's just a bore to read.

Personally, I see the stuff I say as something most people are afraid to say.[/quote]

"Personally, I see the stuff I say as something most people are afraid to say."

If the "uniqueness" and "interesting" aspect of an opinion is arbitrary as you imply, then the message of your original post is a bit moot. That, and it's not as if he was claiming to be some special snowflake.

[quote=Demonlord]So you listed your opinions which were very common amongst people and nothing special. Feeling as if you were special enough to state your common opinions as if they were special.
What, do you think your special or something?[/quote]

Coming from you, that's kind of a bold statement.

What's wrong with expressing an opinion?

[quote=Aren]@dwillss: I disagree. I don't think you need knowledge of all things to distinguish whether there is or isn't a God. If that was the case, then religious people wouldn't know if there was a God either.

All you need is a bit of common sense, a tendency to look for contradictions, and logic.

And your definition of Agnostics is essentially the same as my definition. The claim here is that God exists.[/quote]

Your wrong. Atheism is a claim that no God exist. A claim without facts is worthless. Agnostic is not based on claims but in realizing there is no way to prove or disprove.
Another way to put it is in order to be atheist you believe in nothing. But that in itself is a belief which is contradictory to atheism.

Also religious people believe by faith.

To your first comment regarding orthodox church and such. If you paint a panting you as a creator have every right to change anything you like.
If you start a company you choose who works and where.
If God is the creator he has every right to choose how things work in his church.

[quote=Zunoku]Okay, I [b][i]know[/i][/b] this is a touchy topic, but I feel the need to share my thoughts.

First off, I do not believe in any god. Why? I believe there is no god because before there was even the conception of a [i]thought[/i] of God, there was life, and planet Earth existed. Science can prove this.

Secondly, there are many, many, many different omnipotent/omniscient beings. And we have not yet proved that any of them even existed, we've only had vague stories that were allegedly passed down through generations.

And lastly, how come since the creation of these faiths, has none of the events that made them, like parting the Red Sea, people descending from Heaven, people ascending to Heaven, golden apples, whatever... Ever been proven to exist, or happened again?
So... What... Everything just happened beforehand? After so many centuries, not one shred of this mystical power that created the universe has shown itself?

In my opinion, faith is man-made in order to give human beings a sense of belonging, and something to follow, rather than being blind as a bat in the metaphorical darkness we call life.[/quote]
don't forget the honey combs or something falling down the sky and allowing Moses to travel in the desert for over a decade or something

Dude lol you cannot put science and god in the same sentence.
You have to pick, god is faith, faith isn't science.

[quote=Aren]@dwillss: No no, I'm an atheist. To be an agnostic means to claim neither belief nor disbelief in God. I say I am an atheist because I believe God does not exist.[/quote]

No no, Agnostic means that the view of certain claims is unknown or unknowable. In order to be an atheist you claim there is no God and to make such a claim means you need to have all knowledge of all things.

Just a pointer to all the so called atheist out there. There is no such thing as an atheist.
Atheist is contradicting.
It means you don't believe in anything, but to believe in nothing requires a BELIEF in nothing. Therefore your an agnostic.
Also to be able to claim your an atheist you must have all the knowledge in the world to be certain that no god exist.

Just my thoughts:
I think it's really rude how the atheistic community assumes Christians aren't capable of thinking for themselves. I've heard every atheistic argument there is, but I've made a personal decision that I'm going to believe anyway. Atheists present themselves as "free thinkers," but when someone makes the decision to be religious we're suddenly close-minded and ignorant. That's both hypocritical and contradictory to the term "free thinker." A free thinker should be able to choose what path he or she chooses. I just happened to pick the religious route.

Also, you can't hate on Christianity (I know this is a 'religious' discussion, but we all know we're talking about Christians here) without knowing the history and doctrine of the church. Almost every Christian or former Christian here is from a Protestant or Catholic background. There are one, maybe two Orthodox Christians here, and none of them speak up because Christianity has become irreversibly watered-down thanks to historical events such as the reformation and the Great Schism. The Orthodox have teachings that almost all modern Christians (and let me remind you, the Orthodox were the ones who founded the church two thousand years ago) ignore.

For instance: what happens when an unbaptized baby dies? Does it go to Hell?
Orthodoxy says no. There's plenty of teachings that people ignore on the subject.
Another one: where's free will in Christianity if everything is pre-determined by God?
Orthodoxy says that we are given free reign to do whatever we want. We are all given a purpose, but it is our decision to act as we wish until that purpose is fulfilled.

One thing that absolutely grates me, though, is how the atheistic community claims Christians just want money. Have you ever heard of the IOCC? The Orthodox charity that has given over $30 million in relief efforts without trying to convert a single community? The ones that are just doing it from their hearts? I guess all that's irrelevant. Atheists also complain about how churches get off tax-free. Have you ever seen a priest or pastor's salary? It's not much, let me tell you. Money goes to help the expenses of the church, salaries, and events, and the rest goes to charity.
And the Crusades...that just makes me face-palm every time. I hate that people insist on bringing something up that happened a thousand years ago, [i]especially when it was done by an extremist branch that was not at all related to the Orthodox.[/i] It's a cheap shot. The church has apologized for it. Why can't we move on? It can be argued that the secularist mindset in WWII killed far more people. But I know someone will have to disagree and bring it back to Christianity somehow.

I'm tired of playing the "nice and tolerant" game. There's a thousand atheists on this site and I have yet to meet [i]one[/i] that is not completely and utterly condescending. It irritates me. You all can complain about the way Christians present themselves, and that is valid, but don't be a hypocrite. Present yourself nicely for once. Don't act like we're all ignorant. In fact, I've seen just about every religious stereotype played out among atheists as well.
Shape up. Condescension isn't helping your cause. If you want to end religion, at least make your side look appealing. Prove you can share our morals without sharing the religion. Because let me tell you, you aren't doing a great job so far.
/endannoyedrant

I don't think Science has actually proven it. I believe they just have a strong theory like everything else.
Well,
I LOVE GOD! kgonna get ready for CHUUUURCHH and PRAAAAISEEEEE
lol.

"First off, I do not believe in any god. Why? I believe there is no god because before there was even the conception of a thought of God, there was life, and planet Earth existed. Science can prove this."

How in the heck do you know that? If there was a god, he would have created everything. It's like science. Just because there's never been thought of a theory before, doesn't mean they don't exist. Take dark matter, for example. It's a relatively new finding/theory, but it didn't only come into existence as humans thought of it, it's always been there.

Religions were created to keep women in the kitchen.

True story

I gave up my faith in Christianity because of how the christian community displays themselves as better.

One thing i find compelling about the bible though is considering how old it is the basic fundamentals of life written in it still apply to today and is yet to be outdated.

[quote=DatingAdvice]Not to be too much of a prick here but what you're sharing really isn't an opinion. See, when you're making claims trying to disprove something, you're dealing with [i]facts[/i] and (hopefully!) logic and evidence; although it is interesting--and quite indicative--that we say "What do you feel about God?" To me that just conclusively proves that the way many people view God isn't through the lens of logic but through emotion, rendering most of these discussions null and void anyway. People dump God on their own when they are well off and comfortable. Otherwise, no amount of logic does anything.[/quote]

well said

Before there was even the conception of the [i]thought[/i] of gravity, we were still feeling its effects. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I just wanted to throw that out there. No, I'm not a radical Christian that's going to come after you with a cross, and yep, you have a right to express your opinions. I just feel like that argument is invalid.

[quote=Zunoku]In my opinion, faith is man-made in order to give human beings a sense of belonging, and something to follow, rather than being blind as a bat in the metaphorical darkness we call life.[/quote]

Replace "faith" with "religion". And what is faith if not man-made?

[quote=Swordply]No, they believe because they were raised to believe.[/quote]

I'm talking about those who converted later on and weren't indoctrinated from early childhood.
I don't see how my statement disagreed with (or relates to) what you said or with what @xAzarotHx said.

Maybe the religious from the outside are brainwashed, misinformed, and/or misguided, but to say they believe out of fear or purposely believe it as some sort of device for comfort is kind of a long shot not to mention snooty.

@SoggyToast: Perhaps I am.

[quote=Zunoku]First off, I do not believe in any god. Why? I believe there is no god because before there was even the conception of a [i]thought[/i] of God, there was life, and planet Earth existed. Science can prove this.[/quote]

Just because nobody was there to believe doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. He could have made the universe, the earth and all that and later on (on whatever day) he "did" make adam and eve who then recognized him as their God. That's a weird reason not to believe lol
you should rethink your reasons and find out either the true or the logical reason as of why you don't believe.

[quote=Zunoku]Secondly, there are many, many, many different omnipotent/omniscient beings. And we have not yet proved that any of them even existed, we've only had vague stories that were allegedly passed down through generations.[/quote]

Whichever beings you're talking about - what does it matter? What do these other beings have to do with God anyway? It ALMOST sounds like you're saying something like "We can't prove Angels exist so anything else we have no proof of doesn't exist either"
Also, maybe we are just lacking the technology or techniques to prove it.
Think about it: Back then e.g. nobody knew about the existence of Atoms. We can't see them (and in that case we didn't know about them in particular) and nobody could prove they were there until humanity found a way for it.
God and other "invisible" beings work on a spiritual level - you have no "machine" to measure that or prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Long story short: Don't blaim something does not exist just because you can't prove it (yet)

[quote=Zunoku]And lastly, how come since the creation of these faiths, has none of the events that made them, like parting the Red Sea, people descending from Heaven, people ascending to Heaven, golden apples, whatever... Ever been proven to exist, or happened again?
So... What... Everything just happened beforehand? After so many centuries, not one shred of this mystical power that created the universe has shown itself?
In my opinion, faith is man-made in order to give human beings a sense of belonging, and something to follow, rather than being blind as a bat in the metaphorical darkness we call life.[/quote]

Well let me share my thoughts about God..
I don't believe in God for several reasons.
God is talked about as if he is perfect, he's loving and accepting.

Starting from the past: He made Adam and Eve and the bible said something like he created them the way HE is. Basically Adam and Eve would have had to be perfect.
They got curious though and ate the apple (which wasn't an apple most likely, instead could have been a fig or pomegranate) which gave them consciousness of their nakedness or whatever.
He got mad and threw them out of paradise...

Why does he as oh so perfect god have the ability to hold such grudge and why did he even tempt them? To test them? But they're his own creation..
To me it sounds like having a free will and an open mind is almost a sin..

Then, incest isn't allowed, yes?
Now there was just Adam and Eve - and then? They had babies. And then?
There either was incest or god had to make more humans to prevent that. But then, why would those "new" humans automatically NOT be allowed in paradise as it was Adam and Eve "sinning" and not the others?
It either way is messed up/unfair..

Now if you continue, a while later God for one supports "war" or a kinda fight (those miracles with the frogs and all so his people could be freed) and on the other hand he kills many humans because they became corrupted.
I thought "we" are all his children? Do you just kill your child when it disobeys? Wasn't it HIS fault that they became corrupted? He didn't take care of them (and don't give me that crap about he tests us... failing means we have to die?) and even though they're supposed to BE LIKE HIM they failed in his opinion so he just erases them... that's messed up.. (also the whole bible thing is just about one area... Humanity was all over the planet, wasn't it? So he would have had to flood the WHOLE planet.. and keeping in mind how big it is you can't tell me that the rest of the world was corrupted.. don't really wanna explain that but I hope you get my point)

thinking about how it is right now: Yes, there's no sign of God. There's wars, there's pain, children suffer (and they really are innocent.. think about those in Africa.. they get born and die right away sometimes, how is that fair? How does "God" justify that?)
And then all I hear is in 2012 the world will go down (which is then again just one little planet in this whole universe and we get the whole wrath?)
Some people say they will be the only ones surviving cause of their believe bla bla bla...
WHY would the world end? Because the world has to be cleaned? Why did God wait until we got to this point then instead of ACTIVELY leading us?

I stopped believing because if there would be a god then I don't think there would be this much suffering.
And if there is then he is a horrible god, he's unfair, he's ignorant and he is holding a grudge against his own and very first children. He "is" their father but he did not protect them. Also, God is said to be omnipresent - but where was he when the snake (rofl talking snake) tempted them, where is he when all those children die, why does he watch people destroy each other? If he is so great he could just appear, he could help us have faith and be united but he doesn't

I enjoy my freedom of mind. I also haven't met a really intelligent or "strong" believer yet. Even a friend of mine who IS smart was raised strictly religious by his parents and he is fighting against the cage, it's sad to see. He believes which hinders him in doing really important things, which stops him from doing what his heart tells him, also because his parents would beat him up if he would disobey.. Stories like that just prove me I'm right with being free.

Religious people also, as most (or all) of you know, blindly believe things the bible says. Adam and Eve? Fact. Big Bang? Blasphemy!
it's scientifically proven and you could say God gave us the skill to build things, to become better, to learn - then why would he let us believe a lie or something against him? as test? screw that, what kind of horrible god tests his "children" or "sheep" and NEVER supports them actively. It's like we're his entertainment toys.

I personally am not even ABLE to believe. I naturally analyze things, I wanna find out the origin of stuff, find out how it works and all that. I need logic. The bible is not logic, religious belief is not logic.

Sure it may give some people hope and faith, may help them to become healthy even (but not because it's god helping - it's because it's out of their own strength which they gain through the belief) but it also blinds them. And religion keeps people stupid, tells them to believe it or else they're against god. Questioning god is wrong, questioning his actions is wrong.
I couldn't live with that and I pity, and partly dislike, everyone who just blindly follows it and I end up suffering under it (or someone I care for in the current case)

I'm happy for those that live their happy (and imo naive) life, live and let live, but by all means don't get that crap near me..

[quote=wolfexe]Religion always has and always will be just another way to control people. If you can convince them some all knowing being or whatever is watching and judging them onto a set of rules. Out of fear they often will blindly follow to their given rules. In the same way if you were to believe there were a man with a gun to your back, if he were to say jump, you would say "how high".[/quote]

Religion is compelling to people. They don't believe out of fear, or at least that's not the main point of believing. You're making too many assumptions.

http://www.lolwtfcomics.com/upload/uploads/1318759478.jpg

theres a difference between religion and believing in God @jamppa

Religion always has and always will be just another way to control people. If you can convince them some all knowing being or whatever is watching and judging them onto a set of rules. Out of fear they often will blindly follow to their given rules. In the same way if you were to believe there were a man with a gun to your back, if he were to say jump, you would say "how high".

"In my opinion, faith is man-made in order to give human beings a sense of belonging, and something to follow, rather than being blind as a bat in the metaphorical darkness we call life."

Isn't that a bit condescending? I know you're not meaning to be, but still. You're saying in short that the religious believe in deities because they're "scared", "desperate", "trying to preoccupy themselves", or "trying to comfort themselves".

The religious honestly just believe in them/it/him because to them that's the truth, as hard as it might seem for you and me.

@daStrike: I'd love to, but it's late, so I'm going to let this thread gain a few posts so I can answer them in the morning.
It's 3:00am here.

@DatingAdvice: I know that this probably isn't readily researched, but this is just my take on faith and God, just my two cents, not an essay. I know people will disagree with me, but I still felt like sharing my thoughts.

ok cool
lets play sum maplestory now <3