%Str vs. %Attack
Hi! So this is a pretty general question and I'm not sure if people can answer it (if there even is a correct answer).
**In general, which would be more beneficial for your range at level 200 with about 300k range - 34% Str or 15% attack?**
September 1, 2015
17 Comments • Newest first
@crappyllama Multiplier*(4*Main+Secondary)*(Wmatk (or matk) /100) except Xenon has 3 main, no secondary and Avenger is HP/9? (was changed at some pt but iono the new denominator) rather than 4*Main
the %Str vs %Luk is specific to Xenon's only. that's because Str and Luk are directly linked together to Main stat (and even then, %AllStat all the way). mainwhile, Atk has absolutely no effect on Str, etc.
also, the point was that the relative % gain from %stat does not rely on its +stat.
(also, what if I like doing calculations for games? =P)
I agree that my scenario is impossible. Again, I presented this for poops and giggles, to add some humor in an otherwise serious post. The "serious" part being that %atk is generally better than %stat.
If the formula was Atk*stat, then yes, I agree completely with you. But like I said, I don't know how the calculations are done so I was leaving it open. What if it was Atk+stat? then:
100 atk and 10,000 str is 10,100 range.
10%atk brings you to 110 atk and a range of 10,110 (.1% increase)
10%str brings you to 11,000 str and a range of 11,100 (9.9% increase)
What if 1,000 atk and 10,000 str? So range would be 11,000
10%atk brings you to 1,100 atk and range of 11,100 (.9% increase)
10% str brings you to 11,000 str and a range of 12,000 (9.1% increase)
Base stat would matter in this case.
Take Xenons for example: lets say the comparison is 34% str vs 15% luk. If you had 1,000 base str and 1,000 base luk, 34% str would be better to take. However, if you have 100 base str and 1,000 base luk, 15% luk would be better to take. Of course, the formula for Xenon's str and luk is different from the formula of str and atk. So I guess depending on the formula, then base stat would or would not matter.
I do believe the formula is much closer to Atk*stat than Atk+stat, so I do believe you're closer to being right but my case was, (once again), for fun purposes and not about being right (I do know this is a very farfetched scenario... as I purposely made it out to be).
I know school just started, but you can still loosen up on the math and have some fun...
[quote=crappyllama]Oh, I completely understand this for a single stat (similar to the misconception that 10% all stat for a xenon would give 3x the bonus than 10% main stat for any other class). It's common sense that 30% increase in stat will increase your stat by 30% regardless of how much the base is. I misunderstood what you meant when you said base stat doesn't matter for %stat increase. However, the OP is comparing two different stats, and I think the base stat would matter in this case.
Basically, I was saying the character would have 1 atk and 10,000 str. I do not know how the damage calculator works, but I assumed that 3,400 str (34% of 10,000) would give a bigger boost to range than .15 atk(15% of 1) in this scenario.
On OP's topic, "generally" %atk is better than %main stat but I wanted to present an edge case where the "general" isn't true just for poops and giggles.[/quote]
it doesn't matter that they're different stats.
so simplified down say you had 100 atk and 10,000 Str and range is (simplified) 100*10,000 = 1m
10% Atk brings you to 110 atk, and range of 1.1m (10% increase)
10% Str brings you to 11,000 Str, or range of 1.1m (10% increase)
if you had 200 atk instead
10% atk brings you from 200->210 and range of 2m->2.2m (2.2/2 = 1.1 or 10% increase)
10% Str brings you to 2.2m as well (10% increase)
in the specific example given by OP, 34% Str is better only because we have no clue what the current %Str or %Atk is and [i]that[/i] is what matters. not base Str, nor base atk, nor range. though in general you should always be going for %Atk > %Str since there's always more room for %Str and thus the returns on more %Str are more diminished
[quote=crappyllama]Oh, I completely understand this for a single stat (similar to the misconception that 10% all stat for a xenon would give 3x the bonus than 10% main stat for any other class). It's common sense that 30% increase in stat will increase your stat by 30% regardless of how much the base is. I misunderstood what you meant when you said base stat doesn't matter for %stat increase. However, the OP is comparing two different stats, and I think the base stat would matter in this case.
Basically, I was saying the character would have 1 atk and 10,000 str. I do not know how the damage calculator works, but I assumed that 3,400 str (34% of 10,000) would give a bigger boost to range than .15 atk(15% of 1) in this scenario.
On OP's topic, "generally" %atk is better than %main stat but I wanted to present an edge case where the "general" isn't true just for poops and giggles.[/quote]
Well, that case is actually impossible to achieve in MapleStory, so it's pointless as anything other than a thought exercise.
You can hit 1 attack if you have no character cards, no Blessing, and just have a 1 attack level 0 weapon or something.
You cannot hit 10k base stat in MapleStory. This is assuming you primed everything, including Gollux accessories, and have the most perfect bonus potentials of + X stat per 10 levels to boost your base stat as much as possible. You would get at most 25 * 2 = 50 base stat per line, which is 150 stat per item. Excluding the 3 weapon slots, you have 19 slots where you could land that bonus potential. That would bring you 2,850 extra base stat. If you primed literally every item you can prime, you would probably be at around 4,000 base stat. You're still a few thousand short of 10k.
Oh, I completely understand this for a single stat (similar to the misconception that 10% all stat for a xenon would give 3x the bonus than 10% main stat for any other class). It's common sense that 30% increase in stat will increase your stat by 30% regardless of how much the base is. I misunderstood what you meant when you said base stat doesn't matter for %stat increase. However, the OP is comparing two different stats, and I think the base stat would matter in this case.
Basically, I was saying the character would have 1 atk and 10,000 str. I do not know how the damage calculator works, but I assumed that 3,400 str (34% of 10,000) would give a bigger boost to range than .15 atk(15% of 1) in this scenario.
On OP's topic, "generally" %atk is better than %main stat but I wanted to present an edge case where the "general" isn't true just for poops and giggles.
[quote=crappyllama]Oh dang, really? Where does it take the %atk and %stat from? I always thought that if I had 100 base stat and wear an equip that gives 10% stat, then it would give me +10...[/quote]
The trick is to not think about the stat/atk increase in absolute terms but rather to consider your damage increase relatively, the post above goes through this in greater detail.
[quote=crappyllama]Oh dang, really? Where does it take the %atk and %stat from? I always thought that if I had 100 base stat and wear an equip that gives 10% stat, then it would give me +10...[/quote]
It does, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of efficiency.
1000 base stat with 100% stat, going to 110% stat => +100 = 2100/2000 = 5% damage gain
2000 base stat with 100% stat, going to 110% stat => +200 = 4200/4000 = 5% damage gain
4000 base stat with 100% stat, going to 110% stat => +400 = 8400/8000 = 5% damage gain
1000 base stat with 200% stat, going to 210% stat => +100 = 3100/3000 = 3.33% damage gain
2000 base stat with 200% stat, going to 210% stat => +200 = 6200/6000 = 3.33% damage gain
4000 base stat with 200% stat, going to 210% stat => +400 = 12400/12000 = 3.33% damage gain
1000 base stat with 500% stat, going to 510% stat => +100 = 6100/6000 = 1.67% damage gain
2000 base stat with 500% stat, going to 510% stat => +200 = 12200/12000 = 1.67% damage gain
4000 base stat with 500% stat, going to 510% stat => +400 = 24400/24000 = 1.67% damage gain
tl;dr Regardless of your %stat or %atk, the only thing that affects their effectiveness is your current %stat and %atk.
Base attack and base stat have nothing to do with it.
Why is %ATT so much better than %stat on weapons/secondary/emblems? Because you won't hit 200% attack unless you're a Kanna, and it's already hard to break 100% attack.
The reason why primes are better or very, very close to optimal iCoG-ing is because you hit a base stat:base attack ratio cap of around 2.5 (it depends, it's around 2-3).
That means you would need to hit 4-5 attack per iCoG to match primes, or 3-4 attack and 3 main stat.
[quote=duriel123]Your base stat and atk have no effect on the relative value of %atk vs %stat. Once again, this is a terribly common misconceptions that pops up very frequently on basil.[/quote]
Oh dang, really? Where does it take the %atk and %stat from? I always thought that if I had 100 base stat and wear an equip that gives 10% stat, then it would give me +10...
the str probably
%Att/Boss/PDR on weapon/secondary %STR on everything else.
Emblem should be where your PDR lines should be though
If you're not convinced, and want to see yourself, try testing with [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/192kJ1EQoRRSfSklr7cSnC_oBZHBzlyl_juE94uVqdjY/edit#gid=1040882420]this damage range calculator my friend made.[/url]
1) Take your total str from your stat window.
2) Subtract any +Str gotten from character cards and inner ability.
3) Divide it by (1+<current %str as a decimal>.
4) Multiply it by [1+(.34+<current %str as a decimal>]
5) Plug that str into the calculator with your current %attack.
6) Copy down your range.
7) Reset your strength to your current strength. Plug in .15+<your current %attack> into attack %
8) Copy down your range
9) see which is better
If you're debating between %str and %att on a weapon, I'd recommend that you stick with %att, since you can get %str from plenty of other sources. If comparing between two different equipment and/or if you only care about a better marginal damage increase, then above post basically has the right idea.
Umm with 300k range, it's actually most likely %str. You don't have much of either at the moment.
If you started with 50% str, and 0% atk: +34% str gets you to a multiple of 1.84. +15% atk gets you to a multiple of 1.72. So 34% str is better. The break even point is 127% str at 0% atk. After that 15% atk is better than 34% str.
[quote=crappyllama]%Atk. That's why everyone says cube weapon, secondary, and emblem before anything else.
Unless of course, the weapon you're using is like a picopico hammer and you have no other sources of +atk and all your equips are somehow +animmenseamountofstr.[/quote]
Your base stat and atk have no effect on the relative value of %atk vs %stat. Once again, this is a terribly common misconceptions that pops up very frequently on basil.
%Atk. That's why everyone says cube weapon, secondary, and emblem before anything else.
Unless of course, the weapon you're using is like a picopico hammer and you have no other sources of +atk and all your equips are somehow +animmenseamountofstr.
Weapon, Emblem and Secondary.. %Att is always better regardless of % stat
Oh, it's MUCH MUCH better. I'd even say 6% attack is better than that 34% str