General

[quote=Acquisition] I view it as some innate ability or affinity a person has towards a skill. Everyone is creative and can form their own ideas and stories, drawing isn't just creativity, [/quote]

These are both your opinions.

[quote=Acquisition]

Here's one of my counter arguments explained:
You used exorbitant prices for artwork as a reason for why it was a talent.

I countered with the different factors that come into the pricing of work, as well as examples of arguably "talentless work" that's been sold for millions (Rothko, Pollock). Art is creative expression through skill (or lacktherof in the case of modernism and postmodernism), a skill that can be honed through practice.

Art is too broad a term, drawing is just a tiny part of the entire game. Art ranges from crap in a can to marble statues. Drawing is putting ideas and images down on paper. Calling it a 'talent' is an insult to centuries of development and studying.

I've learnt that trying to change someones opinion over the internet is pointless, but if you're going to try discourage others like OP from continuing what they're passionate about, what I'm passionate about, then I'll speak up.

[/quote]

Talentless work is also your opinion. I like abstract works of art you got a problem with that?. You say the price of art comes from fame but you chose to ignore how they came to fame. In the very end it matters only on whether the person spending the money is willing to accept the art not. Whether the artist has "connections" matters not at the very least; you can't sell just anything to a millionaire. Please tell me the other flaws that you so wisely brought up.

[quote=Acquisition]
Art is too broad a term, drawing is just a tiny part of the entire game. Art ranges from crap in a can to marble statues. Drawing is putting ideas and images down on paper. Calling it a 'talent' is an insult to centuries of development and studying.
[/quote]

You are not a noteworthy person so stop acting like you are an expert on the subject and nobody's being insulted here so get off your high horse. I said drawing is a talent and yes I stand by it and no I am not dodging any arguments, perhaps you have a different definition of draw because I have been defending the same thing all along.

It is you and the other posters who have been dodging my argument and playing the strawman game. Just because I said drawing takes talent its not as if a child will emerge from the womb and produce murals worthy of the most prestigious museum. Talent is your natural aptitude towards a discipline. It will still take training to refine your skills. If you don't have the talent you wont get as far in the end.

Oh and I must point that if you are going to use another poor form of debating by personally attacking me or putting me in a bad light, I need to say that I never intended to put anyone "down" the OP was making an ironic post about how art tutorials skip the crucial step going from shapes to a beautiful drawing and I merely told him that drawing is a talent which means that he/she shouldn't bother learning from tutorials and just draw because drawing is a talent not a skill that can be learned as pointed out from the missing step. But if you want to continue having a poorly constructed argument we can I just wanted to set my record clear.

[quote=Acquisition]

If you truly, honestly believe this in your heart then I feel bad for you, I won't even bother trying persuading you. Pointing the flaws out in your argument is enough.

Its a sad view to think people either can or can't do something. Short of physical disability, everyone can draw, drawing well is just a skill, it can be learnt like any other occupation, just like any other creative pursuit. Enjoy limiting yourself for the rest of your life.[/quote]

Don't worry you didn't point out any flaws other then voice your desperate opinion on having everyone in the world with equal potential. Show me one quote from your rant where you said something that definitely counters my argument because I can't find anything. I don't need to limit myself I already know my talent and know my weaknesses so I am doing just fine. You should enjoy your preconceived notion that you can do anything that anyone else can do with enough practice.

The ability to produce an image on paper is a skill, the ability to create art is a talent.

I thought the original post was funny and then I read all these posts about hardwork vs. talent gobbledygook. It makes me wonder why people feel the need to argue about the stupidest of things. I guess that's the internet for ya.. Sheesh o.o

Physical disability? I saw a video of someone with no arms painting with her feet and those pieces were nothing short of amazing.

Some people let their passion pass whatever sets them back. And succeed. Has nothing to do with being good at drawing from the start. They liked it, they stuck with it. They got better and they kept getting better.

[quote=SirKibbleX2]I used to suck at drawing humans.. now... well I still suck, but it's definitely better than before.[/quote]

oh right in the feels.

I guess I'll input my own thoughts on this. I would describe talent as being an innate skill that people are born with, something they naturally have. That being said, I only see "prodigies" as people with talent. Those children who do advanced math in elementary school, play the piano at age 4, etc.

For me, all I had was an interest in drawing. I wasn't talented, I wasn't prodigal, I just liked drawing. When all the kids my age were playing softball and soccer, I doodled away with anything that could make a line on a piece of paper. In class I drew on the back of every worksheet, the blank spaces in my notebook.

And you know what? [b][i]My art sucked.[/i][/b] For all my dedication to it, it didn't look any different from all the other colorful creations my classmates did. Hands were broccoli, profile views were Pac-Man abominations, and hair was nothing more than a colored mass on top of what passed as a smiley face. I recently found my elementary school notebooks and worksheets while cleaning out my old room; and you could not tell that this kid was good at drawing or any kind of art. All you could tell was that he liked doing it; a lot.

But my interest in drawing extended to looking at artwork, reading drawing books, etc. So I learned, and I copied, and I tried my hand at different styles and methods of drawing. So here I am, not a world-renowned or professional artist, but I can still whip up a better looking doodle than my more tech-savvy or literature-oriented friends. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people who are better artists than me at my age, but they probably liked it just a bit more (Or a lot more) than I did. Or maybe they actually were one of the lucky few who are talented, props to them.

And it all stemmed from an innocent childhood interest in drawing.
I made the OP in respect to how I would look at drawing tutorials on the internet or in books when I was a kid (Or hell, even now), how all of it seemed so absurdly impossible for a kid my age. But I did it anyway, and the end result would at least look similar to the one in the book.

[quote=ShiraokaJinja]You brought up the age old discussion of "Talent vs Hard work" "Nature vs Nurture" "Locke vs Hobbes" etc etc

@djmaxaaron: Saying "I have no talent" is an easy way to give up.
What would the world be like if Einstein, working in his patent office, decided "I have no aptitude for physics, I'm a failure."
Or if the Wright Brothers, after their hundredth crash, decided "It's simply the fact that man can't fly in heavier than air machines"[/quote]

They had the talent to create and prosper on such ideas. Without the talent, a regular guy who puts in the same amount of effort as your examples from back then wouldn't have even been close to creating planes, expanding on physics, etc

[quote=xDracius]oh my god what have i done[/quote]
You brought up the age old discussion of "Talent vs Hard work" "Nature vs Nurture" "Locke vs Hobbes" etc etc

@djmaxaaron: Saying "I have no talent" is an easy way to give up.
What would the world be like if Einstein, working in his patent office, decided "I have no aptitude for physics, I'm a failure."
Or if the Wright Brothers, after their hundredth crash, decided "It's simply the fact that man can't fly in heavier than air machines"

[quote=djmaxaaron]I was wanting something more concrete welp[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by concrete because it's just a matter of opinion. Refer to my edited post above yours.

[quote=enoch129]@djmaxaaron: Now, I did. Just google talent vs hardwork, and you'll find that most people stand on the opinion that hard work beats talent without hard work.[/quote]

I was wanting something more concrete welp

@djmaxaaron: Now, I did. Just google talent vs hardwork, and you'll find that most people stand on the opinion that hard work beats talent without hard work.
Heck, I'll even throw in a few links for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBLphUAUtDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZiRZrYo5tA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPY7d23fScQ

[quote=enoch129]@djmaxaaron: Wow, amazing. I never knew someone could keep prompting me to say the same exact thing I've said by repeating themselves over and over with no examples of ANY sort.[/quote]

I just asked for some, you never asked for mine

[quote=xDracius]oh my god what have i done[/quote]

You pretty much prompted a senseless argument.

oh my god what have i done

@djmaxaaron: Wow, amazing. I never knew someone could keep prompting me to say the same exact thing I've said by repeating themselves over and over with no examples of ANY sort.

[quote=enoch129]@djmaxaaron: Lol... clearly you don't know a thing about art, do you? I'm not even going to bother repeating myself over and over.[/quote]

Wow, amazing. I never knew that my opinion was wrong and that yours is right. I'm sorry that I don't know art like you do care to explain your point further with examples since i basically don't know a thing

@djmaxaaron: Lol... clearly you don't know a thing about art, do you? I'm not even going to bother repeating myself over and over.

[quote=enoch129]@djmaxaaron: Uhm.. no. If you want to get far, you need hard work regardless of talent. Quit being caught up in the idea that talent is all you really need. Smh.
Sure talent will allow someone to reach a certain point faster than someone without talent, but it isn't possible if the one with talent doesn't utilize it.[/quote]

No you don't, if you have enough talent it doesn't matter how hard you work, with a little effort and talent to make up for that it can equate to thousands of hours of hard work and no talent.

I heard a story that a friend told me once. His friend entered an art school with absolutely no skills. Then he drew nothing but paper bags which put his observation skills as well as motor skills to work. He eventually went on to paint commissions for people, including the president. It's possible to be an artist from absolute scratch. Talent has never existed. It's just the will to outdo ourselves while always looking up to those who inspire us with each piece.

I did not ment to thimbs on any of the comment while scrolling on mobile. Arg. But i perfer tutorials on tumblr than deviantart.

@djmaxaaron: Uhm.. no. If you want to get far, you need hard work regardless of talent. Quit being caught up in the idea that talent is all you really need. Smh.
Sure talent will allow someone to reach a certain point faster than someone without talent, but it isn't possible if the one with talent doesn't utilize it.

[quote=enoch129]@djmaxaaron: Talent doesn't matter if you don't put in work. Talent only means that you are able more capable of progressing faster than your peers. Hard work>Talent.[/quote]

it's not really hard work if only little effort is needed along with talent to match "hard work" of a talentless individual

[quote=Sojin]Yes, and then you realize you're missing number three and become a sad potato
I wish I was passionate about drawing [/quote]

Passion gets you a part way there. Diligence and discipline fills in the rest.

@djmaxaaron: Talent doesn't matter if you don't put in work. Talent only means that you are able more capable of progressing faster than your peers. Hard work>Talent.

@zeck96: I've played violin for 3 years and I'm already ahead of people that have worked on violin for about 8 years. I certainly didn't play 3 hours everyday like a professional. I played about 5 hours a week. If you play for 6 years, and I know from watching other people, you can still sound beautiful, even if you are playing easier music than some *bleep* crazy Sarasate music.

@kahime: Because the best played the violin for much more than 6 years.

i see what other people are trying to say, but in my opinion i think art is partly maybe 10% talent and 90% hard work. You could have the talent of understanding color, maybe you have the talent of seeing objects in 3d easily. But that doesn't make you a great artist from the start. Having those talents will probably just speed up the process of improvement. It will take those people with "talent" less time than normal people would take to learn the same thing. Most of the great artists started out with stick figures and unproportioned figures and objects. They worked for years and years just polishing their technical skills. It's true when people say anyone could be an artist. Only if they are willing to commit to drawing for hours and hours a day. I think the real "talent" artists have is commitment. The ability to try and try until they succeed and improve. pretty damn impressive. It's just that it irks some artists when people say "you have such talent!" because it's like they are belittling the fact the artist worked hella hard hours everyday and their amazing work is due to "talent" well that was my take on this : /

@zeck96: My dad's uncle played the violin for 6 years. My dad told me that he took lessons every week. He also told me that he sounded horrible, and couldn't play a thing. He showed a lot interest, so why wasn't he one of the best?

@kahime: They were child prodigies because they practiced at something they found interest in, not because they were born knowing how to play the violin.

[quote=zeck96]@Avatar: So that means anyone who doesn't show talent from birth cannot acquire it, that is where your logic is flawed. A person is not born a professional artist, a person is not born a professional football player, they acquire the 'talents' through experience, regardless of how they used to preform. Everyone has found failure in something before they found success, that is where it doesn't follow.[/quote]

I have to disagree. I believe that people that become the best at what they do show some talent before working at their skills to become greater. For example
most, if not all famous violinists were child prodigies (prodigy might be a little much). Ida haendal, Midori Goto, Joshua Bell, Itzak Perlman, Paganini. I could name more, but you get the point.
For people that grow up to play in professional sports teams, I'm sure that they already had acquired talents as children and just perfected it as they grew up.

[quote=enoch129]The only real way to get better at drawing is practice practice; just like anything out there such as sports or dance.[/quote]

I don't think practice is all that you need to be even close to the best at anything. You need some talent beforehand if you want to even think about that

The only real way to get better at drawing is practice practice; just like anything out there such as sports or dance.

[quote=Avatar]How many of them actually become famous?[/quote]

That's an entirely subjective question, as I have to define what "famous" is, also, it's a funny equation because I need to know non-famous painters, problems aside, roughly 63% of artists who spend their time as professional artists make a living, though, this is not rich, but merely make a living.

If you're looking for filthy rich, then the number is less than 1%.

[quote=zeck96]@Avatar: 90% of painters don't become famous until they die, but if you're willing to put in about 15 years of practice, go for it.[/quote]

How many of them actually become famous?

@Avatar: 90% of painters don't become famous until they die, but if you're willing to put in about 15 years of practice, go for it.

[quote=zeck96]@Avatar: So that means anyone who doesn't show talent from birth cannot acquire it, that is where your logic is flawed. A person is not born a professional artist, a person is not born a professional football player, they acquire the 'talents' through experience, regardless of how they used to preform. Everyone has found failure in something before they found success, that is where it doesn't follow.[/quote]

You're right, I'm dropping out of engineering and switching to an arts major so I can sell my paintings for billions of dollars. Why didn't anyone else think of this. Everyone go show mozart how its done.

@Avatar: So that means anyone who doesn't show talent from birth cannot acquire it, that is where your logic is flawed. A person is not born a professional artist, a person is not born a professional football player, they acquire the 'talents' through experience, regardless of how they used to preform. Everyone has found failure in something before they found success, that is where it doesn't follow.

[quote=zeck96]That... doesn't follow at all, do you not know what talent means? Every great piano player had to practice, every great artist had to practice.
There is no natural aptitude towards those things, it's like saying that someone was meant to play football, they didn't need to practice, they just had the talent, which sounds stupid.[/quote]

It does follow very well. Like I said you can learn to press piano keys and learn to play a song but you can't learn to compose great songs. You can learn to draw shapes and reproduce what you see but you can't learn to draw out your thoughts on paper. Art is the ability to express your creativity and it is a talent (i.e natural aptitude that not everyone has). You can refine your talent by practicing technical skills like shading or playing scales but that will only get you so far.

[quote=Avatar]Never did I say that people that can draw started drawing perfectly. It takes a certain creativity to create a drawing using nothing but your own imagination. If art wasn't a talent then people wouldn't pay in the millions for pieces of artwork. You will find that you can either draw or you can't. Same with piano, anyone can learn to press the keys but not everyone can interpret and play a classical piece flawlessly let alone compose their own work.[/quote]

That... doesn't follow at all, do you not know what talent means? Every great piano player had to practice, every great artist had to practice.
There is no natural aptitude towards those things, it's like saying that someone was meant to play football, they didn't need to practice, they just had the talent, which sounds stupid.

[quote=Acquisition]Talent is a pathetic excuse mumbled by people unwilling to commit themselves. I guarantee you that every artist you look up to, short of those human xerox's with amazing [b]copying[/b] ability, started out garbage and worked hard for their skills.

Calling it talent is an insult mate.

OT: Stay away from DA tutorials, they're bad for your health yo.[/quote]

Never did I say that people that can draw started drawing perfectly. It takes a certain creativity to create a drawing using nothing but your own imagination. If art wasn't a talent then people wouldn't pay in the millions for pieces of artwork. You will find that you can either draw or you can't. Same with piano, anyone can learn to press the keys but not everyone can interpret and play a classical piece flawlessly let alone compose their own work.

When will you learn that drawing is a talent?

Yes, and then you realize you're missing number three and become a sad potato
I wish I was passionate about drawing