General

[quote=ashleyattacked]I respect wealth if the person worked hard for it, values it, and enjoys it. But wealth isn't the key concept here. I just respect and admire people who are able to have self control, who have goals and make meaningful progress towards them...as well as people who are comfortable with themselves and enjoy what they enjoy and don't try to be someone they're not.

Most people would consider me wealthy in game, I guess. But thing is...I've never had a job. I'm too young. If I ever -did- have a job (which I won't anytime soon since I'm starting ballet school full time next year) there's no way my mom would let me spend rl money on this game.

Literally every bit of money I have in game or have used towards NX has been earned through hard work and saving [B]in game.[/B] Not just merching...but saving money and being diligent. When I have free time and find myself just idly standing around talking in FM...I remind myself that I should go do some minimal work like hunting alchemy drops for making potions to sell, bossing and collecting the cheap drops they give, etc. It hardly amounts to anything but by doing it all the time it seriously adds up way faster than you'd imagine. That's literally how I funded myself. Doing that, selling crap, getting minimal NX from what I could sell in game...then being strategic and rather than throwing all of my NX towards buying cute stuff or cubing things...lots of times I figure its better to cube some items to sell. In the process I've made several Gollux items with >30% Luk, as well as many other great things. I tend to focus on %luk gear since the 'conversion' rate from %luk to %dex is in my favour. I can sell %luk stuff for so much more than similar %dex/str stuff that I can literally turn around and sometimes come away with two different, but equally as good (~24-30+ %dex), items funded purely from the profit made from that one %luk item. I feel bad for thieves. lol.

Fyi: Just yday I got my Emblem's bonus pot up to 21% atk with bonus cubes that I got from selling a 30% luk Scarlet Ring I had made gradually over time when I had left over cubes and nothing else worth the risk of cubing.

My real life best friend, however, is a complete and total henehoe. She's never had a character with over 100k range. I tried to fund her and make her gear and she turned me down...tho she was more than glad to use that money for cute stuff instead, lol. But that's who she is and if she decided to fake it and try to be like me or someone more competitive...I'd respect that less. She's content to be who she is and I admire that as much as I admire any other trait.

Regarding spending real life money on NX: if that's what you do, more power to you. Long as you're mature and responsible about it, no reason to think anything but highly of it. Whether its hard work and patience in game or hard work and patience in real life at a job - it's all still hard work and it all still requires restraint, maturity and self control. I don't really get the nonsense trashing people for spending rl money on the game vs obsessively merching, collecting drops and saving forever. Yeah, that's what I do - but if I had the option, I'd get a job and buy my NX with rl money. I value my time. Too often people forget that playing the game obsessively, merching, bossing nonstop, on and on is still taking a real life toll on them and their potential earnings. Time literally is money. At some point you come to a line where you have to decide which is more valuable to you: time or money. I value my time more...

Not to mention minimum wage = $8 - $9 dollars an hour. working 20-30 hours a week (an amount of time plenty of people don't hesitate to invest in Maplestory each week) would easily net you $180-$200 dollars a week - literally almost $600 dollars a month. You'd be hard pressed to make $600 of NX in a YEAR, even if you're one of those people thats gets off doing the high risk / high reward type of merchanting. If you don't have someone else's shoulders to stand on...or friends to support you and help you out...you're just flat out not going to make any appreciable amount of money through in game means. Note: That's all assuming you value your time more. I totally respect people who love the challenge of putting rules like only funding themselves through in game hard work. If that's what you value then you'd be dumb not to do that, lol.

That's why I say 'wealth' isn't the key distinction about all of this to me. As long as you have self control, restraint, get done the things you should do - it doesn't matter what you value, that's all very admirable. Just be who you are and try not to get yourself in situations where you have to rely on charity from others since you weren't cautious or mature. If you like something, like it. Don't copy other people. Be yourself and own it, lol. Everything is admirable if you're being true to yourself and being responsible at the same time.

It's easy to find things to respect in the world when you don't keep giving in to hating people or looking down on others because it's socially acceptable for whatever reason. The worlds a lot happier place than most people seem to realize...and a lot of the problems seem to arise when ppl allow themselves to be weak and 'judge'. People are all the same...we're all motivated by similar things and almost none of us are truly 'bad' people. We're just trying to get by and there's no reason to hate or even judge people for reasons like that...long as it's not hurting you, mind your own business.[/quote]

You're not too young for a job lol what

I figured it takes me about an hour without a Hyper rock to go around and kill my bosses to get that 900 or so Reward Points a day. A whole hour. That RP is usually for Black Cubes or something.
An hour at my work gives me $20.

It's a nice thing to say that you spent no real money on the game. But time is a precious thing as well. 0.9k NX for an hour of ingame work vs 20k NX for an hour at my job.

I've always been good at math, and for some reason, I run the numbers, I know it's more efficient for me to buy this NX and cube my items to legendary. But then I ask myself, why? So I can Hellux or HMag for items to sell... What would I need to sell them for? The time it takes to Hellux or HMag, I could make more money at my job and throw that at NX.

The game is a lot less fun for me when I think about this, The only item I've used NX on is my staff/secondary, and things for my apperance. The rest have been items I bought clean, and used Epic Pots on, then hunted for Cubes via Bosses/Veins/Events, and slowly got % INT on them all. I just started hitting 10m per line with FB, 20m with my Hyper, and it feels like much more of an accomplishment doing it that way, for it isn't necessarily the end you want to get to, it's the journey you take getting there. After playing this game for the better part of 9 years, I'm not too sure what I'd do if I started hitting cap because my math says I can afford to spend my next pay cheque on NX because it's more efficient.

I take the beaten path. It may not be the smart choice, but it's fun.

@signaporean I get what you're saying... it's just dumb. Also, referring to synonyms to try and argue your point is also silly; gigantic and large are synonyms, but don't mean the same thing.

If you continually want to shun the responsibility of making a trade(And assuming that your research is valid), that's fine. Don't try and force others to abide by your morals; this boils down to the same argument again, and you keep trying to IMPOSE prices on others; in essence, you say "Based on 'x' price that a majority of people offer, anything too far away from it is a scam.".

You've ignored several of my questions that destroy your argument, specifically on the terms of individual value(In comparison to your supposed universal value... despite being able to offer/refuse any price you want), attribute an unfair responsibility to one side of the trade(Whoever you're trading with; the fact that it's fair that you 'scam' yourself is just ludicrous) and in general just keep bible thumping the same things over and over.

"I don't care what the price is. I research and find that the average price is x so i'm going to sell at x. That's how this market works."

So essentially, the way YOU do things is now the LAW. Funny. I can set my price to whatever I want, you can refuse it or you can accept it; we can haggle, and you can ignore it. Stop acting like you need to be coddled and everyone has to treat the way YOU impose things as LAW. You keep acting as if the average price is some infallible law for your transactions, and anyone deviating from it is attempting to cause you harm.

It's just silly. You act like your research is fact when it doesn't take into account several factors(Such as how long someone spent to get that item, how much they believe it's worth, etc). You act like any sort of haggling beyond 'x' range is scamming... and that's just incredibly dumb.

[quote=tricks122]@signaporean Once more, your argument boils down to "This average value that I have attributed is invariably the average price, and trading outside it, despite it being possible, fair and without rules against it, is a scam.", and that's simply NOT how the economy works. You are independent in terms of thought and have the maturity to make a decision on whether or not to accept their price; if them making an offer that's low is "attempting to deceive you"(Or someone putting up an item for too high, but ONLY at specific times), then by your logic, me giving you a faulty range for doing 'x'-'y' boss is also deceiving, particularly if it costs you resources to do it. It's the same principal; in the end, what you've done is remove all of the responsibility from yourself or any consumer, and attach it to the merchant.

If you go to a store and they're selling a pack of gum for 10$(This is rather overpriced, at least around here), you have the full right to refuse to buy it. The store is not inherently scamming you, because they can charge what they want in a Free Market for it; you, likewise, can refuse to buy it, the same way you could refuse to sell your signed guitar from ACDC for 100$ to a pawn shop. By expecting to remove the ability for EVERYONE to offer and choose a price, you are expecting their hand to be held; you are saying that YOU are not responsible or mature enough to refuse an offer that you believe to be low(Would this even be the same scenario if you were charging an upper section of the price, such as 1b for an item worth 700m-1b, and someone offering you 600m would be attempting to 'scam' you, or does it magically change because it's within the average price's range?).

It's not an issue of semantics. Low-balling and high-balling are legitimate tactics to make profit; I find them annoying, but they are far from scams because the trade window allows me to trade 1 Meso(Or even nothing!) for a perfected Knuckle, if the seller wants. This is because it's a Free Market economy(Unlike, say, RuneScape's Grand Exchange, where prices had 'x' to 'y' value that fluctuated based on their demand and what people paid, and you could only have 'a' to 'b' variation in the profit of a trade). In the end, it's the difference between something that is potentially morally reprehensibly(Ripping someone off or getting a good deal) in comparison to something illegal(Scamming), which is huge.

I'll say this again. I attribute almost no value to NX cosmetics; they bore me and are useless(At least those in the market). In this economy, I would thus offer a low value for them, because my only use for them would be to attempt and sell them for profit; is that inherently a scam, even if I'm within the fair use of the trading system and the market(And the seller receives exactly what I say they will in terms of Mesos?), because I chose to apply my [i]own, independent[/i] mind to determine a price I find fair? And how does the seller's knowledge make it become a scam if they aren't aware of prices and, in their ignorance, choose to believe everything I say to them to be the average price(In essence, believing that I subscribe to their morals and virtues without ever asking, which is folly), in comparison to someone willfully lowering their price because they've, say, held onto it for a while and quickly need the money?

From what I've seen, your answer to the above questions is essentially an imposition of your personal morality, and a forceful elimination of independent actions by giving a set price range, and stating that anyone who offers to buy or sell at a certain deviation from them is scamming. It also causes problems in items that have a market presence, but little defined value(Such as well scrolled/cubed weapons, particularly for unpopular classes), in which case your logic simply doesn't hold up; it's a subjective attempt at logic that deals with average prices, is heavily anchored in your own personal moral philosophy whilst ignoring the reality around you and applies that moral standard to others in an inconsistent way that simply doesn't make any sort of sense in a heavily subjective setting.[/quote]

See you don't get what i'm saying. This is not an average value I attributed, but an average value researched. This is an average value that the item has successfully and continually sold at over a period of time. If the item has sold at value x for a period of time successfully, then that price is a safe price to go off of and best ensures a sale (what we're trying to do in the first place).

You're stuck on the concept of free market economy and I understand full well what you're saying. However, let's be realistic. If the data proves that on average gum has sold for $10, yeah, some guy can say screw you i'm not paying 10 bucks but that guy is outside the average. People GENERALLY (average) are willing to pay 10 bucks and accept that price so screw that guy, selling for $10 will get the gum sold. No one is gonna bend over backwards for this guy and sell it for less when he's not of the average aka not of general opinion on said matter. You're saying that because the trade window allows for any value between 1 and 9,999,999,999 that scams are impossible because the price can theoretically be any and all of these numbers but that's all your argument boils down to.... theory.

I don't care what the price is. I research and find that the average price is x so i'm going to sell at x. That's how this market works. That's how anything gets sold. Obviously it can be manipulated but if we're talking about items with consistent long term value (average) which means over a long period of time, they have successfully sold at x price then trying to convince another individual that it's worth x-y is deceit. Simple as that. We're talking about merchants here, not average joes. We're talking about the people who only play the game for the market aspect or largely play it for such reason.

As for items like well-scrolled pieces, I agree it's hard to price which is why it's harder to scam but you can't tell me that if I have a perfected claw that can sell OVER 10b EASY and you offer me 2b for it and try to convince me it's worth that much that that is not a scam. That's a scam buddy. It doesn't matter what sense of the word you wanna use it in. It's the same. Scam, cheat, trick, deceive, rip-off, con, gyp, we can go on. It's the same thing. Someone tried to cheat you.

I also don't get where you're saying personal morality factors in. If I am selling something and you try and rip me off, then you tried to rip me off.

Now from what you said, it actually does feel like semantics. You're concerned about the legality involved, saying ripping off is legal and scamming is illegal.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/rip-off
^ "In the end, it's the difference between something that is potentially morally reprehensibly(Ripping someone off or getting a good deal) in comparison to something illegal(Scamming), which is huge."

Just because most legal cases do use the word scam, doesn't make it strictly legal or involved in legality. The thesaurus even lists it as a related word(pretty much a synonym) for "rip-off" along with other synonyms that can be used.

I respect wealth if the person worked hard for it, values it, and enjoys it. But wealth isn't the key concept here. I just respect and admire people who are able to have self control, who have goals and make meaningful progress towards them...as well as people who are comfortable with themselves and enjoy what they enjoy and don't try to be someone they're not.

Most people would consider me wealthy in game, I guess. But thing is...I've never had a job. I'm too young. If I ever -did- have a job (which I won't anytime soon since I'm starting ballet school full time next year) there's no way my mom would let me spend rl money on this game.

Literally every bit of money I have in game or have used towards NX has been earned through hard work and saving [B]in game.[/B] Not just merching...but saving money and being diligent. When I have free time and find myself just idly standing around talking in FM...I remind myself that I should go do some minimal work like hunting alchemy drops for making potions to sell, bossing and collecting the cheap drops they give, etc. It hardly amounts to anything but by doing it all the time it seriously adds up way faster than you'd imagine. That's literally how I funded myself. Doing that, selling crap, getting minimal NX from what I could sell in game...then being strategic and rather than throwing all of my NX towards buying cute stuff or cubing things...lots of times I figure its better to cube some items to sell. In the process I've made several Gollux items with >30% Luk, as well as many other great things. I tend to focus on %luk gear since the 'conversion' rate from %luk to %dex is in my favour. I can sell %luk stuff for so much more than similar %dex/str stuff that I can literally turn around and sometimes come away with two different, but equally as good (~24-30+ %dex), items funded purely from the profit made from that one %luk item. I feel bad for thieves. lol.

Fyi: Just yday I got my Emblem's bonus pot up to 21% atk with bonus cubes that I got from selling a 30% luk Scarlet Ring I had made gradually over time when I had left over cubes and nothing else worth the risk of cubing.

My real life best friend, however, is a complete and total henehoe. She's never had a character with over 100k range. I tried to fund her and make her gear and she turned me down...tho she was more than glad to use that money for cute stuff instead, lol. But that's who she is and if she decided to fake it and try to be like me or someone more competitive...I'd respect that less. She's content to be who she is and I admire that as much as I admire any other trait.

Regarding spending real life money on NX: if that's what you do, more power to you. Long as you're mature and responsible about it, no reason to think anything but highly of it. Whether its hard work and patience in game or hard work and patience in real life at a job - it's all still hard work and it all still requires restraint, maturity and self control. I don't really get the nonsense trashing people for spending rl money on the game vs obsessively merching, collecting drops and saving forever. Yeah, that's what I do - but if I had the option, I'd get a job and buy my NX with rl money. I value my time. Too often people forget that playing the game obsessively, merching, bossing nonstop, on and on is still taking a real life toll on them and their potential earnings. Time literally is money. At some point you come to a line where you have to decide which is more valuable to you: time or money. I value my time more...

Not to mention minimum wage = $8 - $9 dollars an hour. working 20-30 hours a week (an amount of time plenty of people don't hesitate to invest in Maplestory each week) would easily net you $180-$200 dollars a week - literally almost $600 dollars a month. You'd be hard pressed to make $600 of NX in a YEAR, even if you're one of those people thats gets off doing the high risk / high reward type of merchanting. If you don't have someone else's shoulders to stand on...or friends to support you and help you out...you're just flat out not going to make any appreciable amount of money through in game means. Note: That's all assuming you value your time more. I totally respect people who love the challenge of putting rules like only funding themselves through in game hard work. If that's what you value then you'd be dumb not to do that, lol.

That's why I say 'wealth' isn't the key distinction about all of this to me. As long as you have self control, restraint, get done the things you should do - it doesn't matter what you value, that's all very admirable. Just be who you are and try not to get yourself in situations where you have to rely on charity from others since you weren't cautious or mature. If you like something, like it. Don't copy other people. Be yourself and own it, lol. Everything is admirable if you're being true to yourself and being responsible at the same time.

It's easy to find things to respect in the world when you don't keep giving in to hating people or looking down on others because it's socially acceptable for whatever reason. The worlds a lot happier place than most people seem to realize...and a lot of the problems seem to arise when ppl allow themselves to be weak and 'judge'. People are all the same...we're all motivated by similar things and almost none of us are truly 'bad' people. We're just trying to get by and there's no reason to hate or even judge people for reasons like that...long as it's not hurting you, mind your own business.

@signaporean Once more, your argument boils down to "This average value that I have attributed is invariably the average price, and trading outside it, despite it being possible, fair and without rules against it, is a scam.", and that's simply NOT how the economy works. You are independent in terms of thought and have the maturity to make a decision on whether or not to accept their price; if them making an offer that's low is "attempting to deceive you"(Or someone putting up an item for too high, but ONLY at specific times), then by your logic, me giving you a faulty range for doing 'x'-'y' boss is also deceiving, particularly if it costs you resources to do it. It's the same principal; in the end, what you've done is remove all of the responsibility from yourself or any consumer, and attach it to the merchant.

If you go to a store and they're selling a pack of gum for 10$(This is rather overpriced, at least around here), you have the full right to refuse to buy it. The store is not inherently scamming you, because they can charge what they want in a Free Market for it; you, likewise, can refuse to buy it, the same way you could refuse to sell your signed guitar from ACDC for 100$ to a pawn shop. By expecting to remove the ability for EVERYONE to offer and choose a price, you are expecting their hand to be held; you are saying that YOU are not responsible or mature enough to refuse an offer that you believe to be low(Would this even be the same scenario if you were charging an upper section of the price, such as 1b for an item worth 700m-1b, and someone offering you 600m would be attempting to 'scam' you, or does it magically change because it's within the average price's range?).

It's not an issue of semantics. Low-balling and high-balling are legitimate tactics to make profit; I find them annoying, but they are far from scams because the trade window allows me to trade 1 Meso(Or even nothing!) for a perfected Knuckle, if the seller wants. This is because it's a Free Market economy(Unlike, say, RuneScape's Grand Exchange, where prices had 'x' to 'y' value that fluctuated based on their demand and what people paid, and you could only have 'a' to 'b' variation in the profit of a trade). In the end, it's the difference between something that is potentially morally reprehensibly(Ripping someone off or getting a good deal) in comparison to something illegal(Scamming), which is huge.

I'll say this again. I attribute almost no value to NX cosmetics; they bore me and are useless(At least those in the market). In this economy, I would thus offer a low value for them, because my only use for them would be to attempt and sell them for profit; is that inherently a scam, even if I'm within the fair use of the trading system and the market(And the seller receives exactly what I say they will in terms of Mesos?), because I chose to apply my [i]own, independent[/i] mind to determine a price I find fair? And how does the seller's knowledge make it become a scam if they aren't aware of prices and, in their ignorance, choose to believe everything I say to them to be the average price(In essence, believing that I subscribe to their morals and virtues without ever asking, which is folly), in comparison to someone willfully lowering their price because they've, say, held onto it for a while and quickly need the money?

From what I've seen, your answer to the above questions is essentially an imposition of your personal morality, and a forceful elimination of independent actions by giving a set price range, and stating that anyone who offers to buy or sell at a certain deviation from them is scamming. It also causes problems in items that have a market presence, but little defined value(Such as well scrolled/cubed weapons, particularly for unpopular classes), in which case your logic simply doesn't hold up; it's a subjective attempt at logic that deals with average prices, is heavily anchored in your own personal moral philosophy whilst ignoring the reality around you and applies that moral standard to others in an inconsistent way that simply doesn't make any sort of sense in a heavily subjective setting.

I respect people who are nice and not mean

[quote=tricks122]@signaporean What you're essentially saying at this point is "Anyone who offers below or above the price that I believe to be fair and right is a scammer.". I don't see who died and made you the king/queen of prices, let alone decided that YOU can impose an average price fluctuation on any of them; it's absolutely ludicrous that you believe anyone offering above/below "x" or "y" price is a scammer. It's moral ground bible thumping at its finest, and you attach the definition of 'deceive' to such loose terms that I could say buying a new item at a low price(At a point where no prices are yet established) is scamming, even if no common price is established. Or, you know, that selling an item that has little defined price(Knuckles from a few years ago, for example, or many pieces of scrolled/cubed gear) above a certain amount due to the effort I put into making it is 'scamming'. Ridiculous. Average prices fluctuate, stagnate, and items are bought/sold outside of them(Just look at how Free Market shops up-charge, many times, in comparison to menial sellers for convenience).

I will state this again, because you clearly missed it. [i]It is not the population's responsibility to baby you on the price of an item. If you want to be treated like an adult and sell an item, expect to make your own choice regarding what price you want to sell it at[/i]. I can very easily say "I earned 'x' item, and I believe the market value does not represent the value in the time/effort I put in to obtaining it in comparison to 'y' item(Or, "This item is rare, despite its non-existent practicality or demand" ). Ergo, I will sell it at higher than the average value, because I am making the decision that this price does not properly represent its worth.", and apparently that would be a 'scam', despite the fact that you are not required to purchase it, made a conscious decision when purchasing it and received EXACTLY what you were told when you purchased it. You are free to make your own decision regarding an item's worth, but saying that anyone who doesn't tell you what you believe to be a fair price to be is scamming you is just absolutely hilarious.

You state this. "They are then convinced it is worth it (even people who watch the market can be tricked as it looks like the item is made scarce, driving the price up) and they buy it just to see hours or days later that the market is full of corsages at 800m a pop. I wrongfully deceived you based on scarcity after a server check.". I'm sorry, I missed the part where you're an eight year old child who believes everything I tell you(Or everything they see) without doing any kind of research and zero kind of thinking; I figured most people are somewhat grown up and have a shred of responsibility and knowledge. My bad, I'll keep that in mind next time I trade with anyone; they're clearly inferior to me and unable to make any kind of independent decision responsibly. Although, if that's the case, then why should I give them a fair price when I made the effort to educate myself on average prices, and they did not, expecting me to do all the work for them?

You also state this. "They prey on the fact that people do not keep up with market prices and then deceive them on said prices. If i'm telling you that a 2.5b item is worth 1.2b, knowing FULL WELL that that's not the case, then i'm trying to deceive you.". Once again, refer to the above paragraphs; worth is a subjective value, and in many cases I believe NX cosmetics to be worth a fraction of their value because I have no use for them(Thus, I would never pay any average price for one). If you trust someone who has full reason to profit or gain from your ignorance and no punishment for doing so, you are a fool; they certainly aren't a reputable person, but so say they're scamming because "Guess what I just did? Got a financial gain from that transaction. ", when they could sell the item later after using it in certain cases(Or making a flip-flop decision on whether they want it or not), is like saying if I buy something from a quitting sale even cheaper that I scammed someone. Oh wait, I'm sorry, they did it 'with some knowledge of what they were doing', so CLEARLY that's exempt from your ruling, for some reason... Despite being an identical circumstance to the examples(Unless, once more, you believe everyone is a child who needs their hand held because they can't make a responsible decision for themselves).

I don't understand your logic either. All it seems to be is "I want to sell my items responsibly, but can't make decisions for myself regarding its value, despite easily being able to do research. Therefore, anyone who lies to me about this item is a scammer!". It's absolutely insane; it is nobody's responsibility to take care of you and cradle you in the Free Market, and it's not a scam because you receive the exact item you paid for, and aren't forced into it. To claim that offering a subjective opinion on what an item is worth(And if one's objective is profit, then forcibly one considers other's objects to be worth less, and theirs more; even if I find that dumb, it's a 'tolerable' way to do things) is a scam, in essence, ends up being based on naivety, moral high-ground arguments and an utter lack of any responsibility for YOUR consensual(And enlightened or ignorant depending on the research done) transactions.

In essence, what you do is attach YOUR personal morality to everyone's actions, and in doing so act as if everyone other than merchants are some form of ignorant child that needs to be babied, because they aren't responsible enough to make their own decisions.,, despite the fact that they can very clearly click "cancel" if the trade is not to their liking. With no consequence or pressure. Saying that merchants are, by obligation, scammers is a hilarious opinion that has little weight beyond the moral high ground, bible thumping narrative you spin; I'd agree that they might not have the brightest sense of good morals(In terms of what could loosely be considered good), but to say that inherently makes them scammers is just ridiculous and doesn't make any sense.[/quote]

idk what this is...
I'm not talking about people holding your hand or subjective value. This is all inconsequential. I don't get why it's hard to understand why people go off average pricing. If you mispriced your items then you messed up. It's no scam. I don't expect people's hands to be held. Yes, the merchant knew more than you and used that to his/her advantage BUT doesn't that still make it some form of deceit as you have been undercut. We're talking about average pricing here, a price that people commonly go off of. Something that can be used as a reference to mirror one's own sales.

I'm talking about people who've done their research or are trying to. In my example, I did my research and tried to undercut. These merchants who know the market now know I know the market after attempting to dupe me. Attempted to wrongfully deceive me. Subjectivity has absolutely nothing to do with anything. The only people can effectively change the price are the top merchants. If you were talking about an item so rare or so new that prices are chaotic then I can agree that you can't call merchants trying to get it for cheap a scam BUT for items that have had set prices that changed very little for weeks on end be lowballed, it's obvious that they're trying to scam. idk it seems to be an issue of semantics here.

What would you describe the situation as? Because I can guarantee you that whatever word you use is likely to be synonymous with the word 'scam'. I mean... surely we can agree that if the going price of specs (example) is 100m and someone convinces you it's worth 50 and is successful, that's deceit no? I don't get how else to explain this...

Also @kiirori: Trick and I are trying to get our points across to each other. It may be frustrating for both of us but that's what an actual debate is. Do something about it if you have a problem with me trying to get at what he's saying and vice-verse. Your argument is literally: I feel you're stupid so you suck. It's not surprising though as American society produces a lot of people like you resulting in the degradation of the education system. The concept of "teachers failing students" has only grown over the years, I wonder why...

@someid You basically spoke my mind on this issue.

I was going to make a video voicing my opinion about spending real money for NX to achieve good end game equipment last week, but ended up not having time. I will probably do it next weekend.

That being said, I would like to say: regardless of the method; working hard is working hard. NO matter if you work hard on maple, or work hard in real life; at the end of the day, the "real price" of your end game equipment (this applies to everything IRL too) will be your hours of labor. This concept of "real price" was first introduced by Adam Smith.

Economists have a famous saying: "There is no such thing as a free lunch." This implies that when people go to a convention that offers "free lunch", the lunch isn't actually free, because in reality you traded your time (hours of labor) for that lunch. For example, you could've used the time you wasted at the convention to be more productive at other things, and in return earn a higher return which will not only cover the lunch but make you better off with extra return. This illustrates the concept of opportunity cost.

You shouldn't discredit a player because they paid real currency for their equips. Just like the "non-paying" players, they traded their labor for money which in turn was traded for equips. Most of the time, paying players have higher opportunity cost than non paying players. Same concept applies to players who work hard all day on maple too. They trade their labor (time spent on the game, mainly farming) for equips. Typically, these kind of players have lower opportunity cost. At the end of the day, it all comes down to efficiency. "Real price" of a set end game equip goal equals is the amount of labor required to attain such goal. Unfortunately, using real currency is just much more efficient in general, because Nexown is a company.

When big bang came out, the P2W aspect of this game went out of control. This is due to the fact that at the time, the only way to get good equips was through real currency. However, throughout the years, Nexown has tuned down the P2W aspect of the game quite a bit. Examples of such are the reward shop, constant coin shop events for scrolls to help you perfect scroll equips, the starforce system requiring only mesos, cube drops from bosses, etc.

In fact, I believe that the P2W aspect is actually what's keeping maple alive. Not every person has the patience nor the time to sit and grind all day on maple. This was one of the reasons for the raise in popularity of "other" (really basil? I cant say private... servers? what are we? 12?) servers. In contrast, with the more regulated (I'm using this word loosely here because its Nexown) P2W aspect of the game, more people can enjoy end game content without actually grinding all day non stop on the official servers. This makes maple more attractive to a larger player base.

In the end, people need to realize that Nexown has grown into a huge privately owned company and should give credit to where credit is due. The early days of a single development team Wizet and small time Nexown is no more. Video game as a whole has evolved into a giant industry. Today, Nexown is very organized and has professionals who regulate the games. They have set goals and clear directions for the games. Everything that happens in game are carefully planned and executed. In fact, I believe that the recent gach "miss-pricing" was no accident. It is a known fact that Nexown has been targeting exploiters that have stocked up mostly on nebulites(among other things). After they "removed" most of the illegit items, the gach "miss-pricing" happened. Coincidence timing? I think not. In my opinion, the huge influx of gach items stabilized the economy (mostly nebs and souls) and Nexown got major cash as well. Understand that this is a P2W game. Nexown's goal is to make $$$, not cater to your needs or stroke your ego. Live with the facts and play the game. As long as the NX or funds used are legit, and there is no exploits involved, from an objective point of view, I don't see why a paying player should deserve less "respect" than a non paying player. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

But then again, who to respect is your decision. I will not tell you other wise. Just like how you (or anyone else) should not judge others of their decision.

@singaporean i'd like to think that everything you posted was an elaborate troll, but it probably wasn't. honestly, just stop, your logic and understanding is so flawed it's not even funny. i'm surprised tricks122 even has the patience to explain everything wrong with your argument.

@signaporean What you're essentially saying at this point is "Anyone who offers below or above the price that I believe to be fair and right is a scammer.". I don't see who died and made you the king/queen of prices, let alone decided that YOU can impose an average price fluctuation on any of them; it's absolutely ludicrous that you believe anyone offering above/below "x" or "y" price is a scammer. It's moral ground bible thumping at its finest, and you attach the definition of 'deceive' to such loose terms that I could say buying a new item at a low price(At a point where no prices are yet established) is scamming, even if no common price is established. Or, you know, that selling an item that has little defined price(Knuckles from a few years ago, for example, or many pieces of scrolled/cubed gear) above a certain amount due to the effort I put into making it is 'scamming'. Ridiculous. Average prices fluctuate, stagnate, and items are bought/sold outside of them(Just look at how Free Market shops up-charge, many times, in comparison to menial sellers for convenience).

I will state this again, because you clearly missed it. [i]It is not the population's responsibility to baby you on the price of an item. If you want to be treated like an adult and sell an item, expect to make your own choice regarding what price you want to sell it at[/i]. I can very easily say "I earned 'x' item, and I believe the market value does not represent the value in the time/effort I put in to obtaining it in comparison to 'y' item(Or, "This item is rare, despite its non-existent practicality or demand" ). Ergo, I will sell it at higher than the average value, because I am making the decision that this price does not properly represent its worth.", and apparently that would be a 'scam', despite the fact that you are not required to purchase it, made a conscious decision when purchasing it and received EXACTLY what you were told when you purchased it. You are free to make your own decision regarding an item's worth, but saying that anyone who doesn't tell you what you believe to be a fair price to be is scamming you is just absolutely hilarious.

You state this. "They are then convinced it is worth it (even people who watch the market can be tricked as it looks like the item is made scarce, driving the price up) and they buy it just to see hours or days later that the market is full of corsages at 800m a pop. I wrongfully deceived you based on scarcity after a server check.". I'm sorry, I missed the part where you're an eight year old child who believes everything I tell you(Or everything they see) without doing any kind of research and zero kind of thinking; I figured most people are somewhat grown up and have a shred of responsibility and knowledge. My bad, I'll keep that in mind next time I trade with anyone; they're clearly inferior to me and unable to make any kind of independent decision responsibly. Although, if that's the case, then why should I give them a fair price when I made the effort to educate myself on average prices, and they did not, expecting me to do all the work for them?

You also state this. "They prey on the fact that people do not keep up with market prices and then deceive them on said prices. If i'm telling you that a 2.5b item is worth 1.2b, knowing FULL WELL that that's not the case, then i'm trying to deceive you.". Once again, refer to the above paragraphs; worth is a subjective value, and in many cases I believe NX cosmetics to be worth a fraction of their value because I have no use for them(Thus, I would never pay any average price for one). If you trust someone who has full reason to profit or gain from your ignorance and no punishment for doing so, you are a fool; they certainly aren't a reputable person, but so say they're scamming because "Guess what I just did? Got a financial gain from that transaction. ", when they could sell the item later after using it in certain cases(Or making a flip-flop decision on whether they want it or not), is like saying if I buy something from a quitting sale even cheaper that I scammed someone. Oh wait, I'm sorry, they did it 'with some knowledge of what they were doing', so CLEARLY that's exempt from your ruling, for some reason... Despite being an identical circumstance to the examples(Unless, once more, you believe everyone is a child who needs their hand held because they can't make a responsible decision for themselves).

I don't understand your logic either. All it seems to be is "I want to sell my items responsibly, but can't make decisions for myself regarding its value, despite easily being able to do research. Therefore, anyone who lies to me about this item is a scammer!". It's absolutely insane; it is nobody's responsibility to take care of you and cradle you in the Free Market, and it's not a scam because you receive the exact item you paid for, and aren't forced into it. To claim that offering a subjective opinion on what an item is worth(And if one's objective is profit, then forcibly one considers other's objects to be worth less, and theirs more; even if I find that dumb, it's a 'tolerable' way to do things) is a scam, in essence, ends up being based on naivety, moral high-ground arguments and an utter lack of any responsibility for YOUR consensual(And enlightened or ignorant depending on the research done) transactions.

In essence, what you do is attach YOUR personal morality to everyone's actions, and in doing so act as if everyone other than merchants are some form of ignorant child that needs to be babied, because they aren't responsible enough to make their own decisions.,, despite the fact that they can very clearly click "cancel" if the trade is not to their liking. With no consequence or pressure. Saying that merchants are, by obligation, scammers is a hilarious opinion that has little weight beyond the moral high ground, bible thumping narrative you spin; I'd agree that they might not have the brightest sense of good morals(In terms of what could loosely be considered good), but to say that inherently makes them scammers is just ridiculous and doesn't make any sense.

[quote=tricks122]@signaporean You're essentially saying "I got offered a low price that's lower than what I wanted, he's scamming me!"... No, he's not. I can't understand how you think this is a scam when the examples in those definitions even contradict your argument.

For example, "bogus investment deals" would imply that the deals themselves were fraudulent from the start, in which case you would not be getting what you were promised. The same would go for the "elderly scam", while in your Corsage case, you WOULD be getting exactly what the merchant said; 500m for your Corsage. You were low-balled, NOT scammed; there is a difference.

What you're saying is that "If someone offers me below the average price, giving me the full opportunity to accept with a clear head and enlightened mind, they're SCAMMING ME.". They are not. You're clearly wrong in this case, because you keep trying to, in essence, say that in a free market, anything which does not revolve around your average price is a scam. That's ludicrous; the prices aren't fraudulent; fraud is defined as "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain". Now, the important part here is the word "deception.". Shall we look at the word "deceit"?

"The action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.". How are they doing this? By offering you a price they're clearly upfront about, which is what they're willing to pay and what they believe the item to be worth to them? You're twisting definitions to fit YOUR reality, whilst ignoring the examples given and trying to fight from an imagined moral high ground where no justification for one exists.

The fact that you say "We're talking about average pricing here. That's what this market goes off of. Not one random dude selling a 1b item for 10m or 10b. 1 person doesn't set the price that way unless they buy a majority of said item and changes the AVERAGE market price.", in order to ignore the individual act of the example I gave earlier, whilst parading around the fact that one person is scamming you by offering a below average price, is also beyond me. You've essentially said "The average price is what matters!", dodged my question where players would be ignorant of the average price(Or have different values in terms of what it's worth to them; I don't even want to know how you'd cry "Scam!" at quitting sales, quick liquidations, items with little market representation, etc... especially since in extreme cases that one person is the entire supply).

A scam implies, and in the real world generally involves, deception and falsely presenting facts for it to seem advantageous to a person; merchants don't do that, they offer you a price which is exactly what you get. Whether you believe that to be a scam or not, it doesn't fit within the definition provided... unless, for some reason, you believe any small deviation from a supposed truth, which is really subjective in nature, that of value and prices, is a scam. In which case, you would also be scamming should you offer that Corsage at 1.3b(The same price discrepancy between the merchant's offer and the supposed average value), which is just ludicrous, to say the least, considering that the circumstances are incredibly similar.[/quote]

Except it is a deception. Firstly, anyone who's checked market price before selling an item can gauge the average price. Once a person finds this price, let's use my corsage as an example, they can try and sell their wares around that average. Why? Because not only could they have found the average price to yield sales but they could also have found the price to be too slow in sales or too fast. All this factors in to what a smart seller would price their wares at. There are also people like myself who prefer fast sales and attempt to undercut for one. That being said, it's beyond me how you do not consider someone who knows the market and decidedly offers a price well below the going price in assumption/hopes that you are not privy to the market price IN ORDER to gain from you NOT A SCAMMER. That just makes ZERO sense whatsoever. It's not like we have some bumpkin who wanders in the fm and has no clue on prices. These guys know the prices and try to deceive others in terms of what the items are worth. And that's just me talking about a guy offering 500. I've seen people give out false pricings AND put items in their shop and buy from themselves and/or friends in order to create an illusory price. This is all scamming. If you come at them saying you've checked the fm, they leave. That in itself is what you say, some guy calling out a price, BUT every single time if you ask to raise the price, they will come back saying that's not the going price and that you're going too high. They prey on the fact that people do not keep up with market prices and then deceive them on said prices. If i'm telling you that a 2.5b item is worth 1.2b, knowing FULL WELL that that's not the case, then i'm trying to deceive you. That's wrongful deception. Let's say I got the item from you for 1.2b. I then put it in my shop for 2.45b and it sells. Guess what I just did? Got a financial gain from that transaction.

I'm not even twisting the definition here. The average price IS ALL THAT MATTERS. If there's no average price then there's no use selling an item. That would mean people have no right to say "P/C" When someone asks for a price check, they want a price that the good they need sold sells at, not a lofty number that just looks pretty in the shop or a garbage number that results in people saying you sold too low. I don't get your logic. If it's a merch, more likely than not, they're out to scam you. They bank on the possibility that you're not privy to prices and then they load you up with a false one. That right there is wrongful deception.

Also your last paragraph is just downright foolish. How do merchants not scam? Falsely present facts? False price. Check. Having it seem advantageous to a person? Person assumes this is the going price and feels they got an honest trade. Check. Any small deviation does not have to be a scam. If someone doesn't honestly know the price, then obviously they didn't scam. They had no knowledge. If someone offered 685m for corsage then it's likely they are fishing for a bargain. I know completely that i'm undercutting which means I want a fast sale, if I get a lower offer then it's up to me to know if the 15m loss is worth it. And yes, it would potentially be scamming to offer the corsage at 1.3b. All it requires is a point in time where very few of them are on the market like right after a server check. I'm giving people a bogus inflated price in hopes that they will buy it. They are then convinced it is worth it (even people who watch the market can be tricked as it looks like the item is made scarce, driving the price up) and they buy it just to see hours or days later that the market is full of corsages at 800m a pop. I wrongfully deceived you based on scarcity after a server check.

@signaporean You're essentially saying "I got offered a low price that's lower than what I wanted, he's scamming me!"... No, he's not. I can't understand how you think this is a scam when the examples in those definitions even contradict your argument.

For example, "bogus investment deals" would imply that the deals themselves were fraudulent from the start, in which case you would not be getting what you were promised. The same would go for the "elderly scam", while in your Corsage case, you WOULD be getting exactly what the merchant said; 500m for your Corsage. You were low-balled, NOT scammed; there is a difference.

What you're saying is that "If someone offers me below the average price, giving me the full opportunity to accept with a clear head and enlightened mind, they're SCAMMING ME.". They are not. You're clearly wrong in this case, because you keep trying to, in essence, say that in a free market, anything which does not revolve around your average price is a scam. That's ludicrous; the prices aren't fraudulent; fraud is defined as "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain". Now, the important part here is the word "deception.". Shall we look at the word "deceit"?

"The action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.". How are they doing this? By offering you a price they're clearly upfront about, which is what they're willing to pay and what they believe the item to be worth to them? You're twisting definitions to fit YOUR reality, whilst ignoring the examples given and trying to fight from an imagined moral high ground where no justification for one exists.

The fact that you say "We're talking about average pricing here. That's what this market goes off of. Not one random dude selling a 1b item for 10m or 10b. 1 person doesn't set the price that way unless they buy a majority of said item and changes the AVERAGE market price.", in order to ignore the individual act of the example I gave earlier, whilst parading around the fact that one person is scamming you by offering a below average price, is also beyond me. You've essentially said "The average price is what matters!", dodged my question where players would be ignorant of the average price(Or have different values in terms of what it's worth to them; I don't even want to know how you'd cry "Scam!" at quitting sales, quick liquidations, items with little market representation, etc... especially since in extreme cases that one person is the entire supply).

A scam implies, and in the real world generally involves, deception and falsely presenting facts for it to seem advantageous to a person; merchants don't do that, they offer you a price which is exactly what you get. Whether you believe that to be a scam or not, it doesn't fit within the definition provided... unless, for some reason, you believe any small deviation from a supposed truth, which is really subjective in nature, that of value and prices, is a scam. In which case, you would also be scamming should you offer that Corsage at 1.3b(The same price discrepancy between the merchant's offer and the supposed average value), which is just ludicrous, to say the least, considering that the circumstances are incredibly similar.

@tricks122: "Wrongful ORRRRRRR criminal."

Whether it's a free market economy or not, the price is not in complete chaos as you're suggesting. I'm gonna put up the google definition since this is such an issue:

scam
skam/
nouninformal
noun: scam; plural noun: scams

1.
a dishonest scheme; a fraud.
"an insurance scam"
synonyms: fraud, swind1e, fraudulent scheme, racket, trick; More
pharming;
informalcon, hustle, flimflam, bunco, grift, gyp, shakedown
"the scam involved a series of bogus investment deals"

verb
verb: scam; 3rd person present: scams; past tense: scammed; past participle: scammed; gerund or present participle: scamming

1.
swind1e.
"a guy that scams the elderly out of their savings"
synonyms: swind1e, cheat, deceive, trick, dupe, hoodwink, double-cross, gull;

You're clearly wrong here. In fact, prices are usually stagnant in the fm for a week AT LEAST most of the time. IN FACT, here's a recent example: I've been trying to sell an azalea corsage for 700m. At that time, the corsage was up for 800-1b ranged in pricing with 2 or so sold at 800+. I decided to price at 700 for a chance at a quicker sale and checked the fm often for price changes. Someone offers me 500 and i've seen that merch around. That person attempted to scam me. I mean... your reply is completely laughable. If anything, these merch try to take advantage of the current stagflation by scamming or attempting to. Every merch tries to catch people with fraudulent prices that are well below current going prices. The fact that you can say that's not scamming is beyond me. Don't argue against the definition. We're talking about average pricing here. That's what this market goes off of. Not one random dude selling a 1b item for 10m or 10b. 1 person doesn't set the price that way unless they buy a majority of said item and changes the AVERAGE market price.

[quote=singaporean]@tricks122:

Google Scam definition. Then google swind1e synonym as used in the verb. Then google synonym fraud (stated in noun: fraudulent action).

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain" describes exactly what merchants do so enlighten me on what this has to do with a free market economy because you're statement that scams can't happen in a free market economy is at the height of folly.[/quote]

Free market economies set their own prices, so expecting that in a complete free-market economy a fair trade can be deemed a 'scam' if the trade price is too far from the average price is silly. I can tell you tons of things that hold zero value to me, and I would pay zero value for them; however, rarity and demand makes them worth some form of price to someone else. If I offered to pay a hilariously low price, because the item has no value to me, and someone accepted, am I scamming? Even if I don't know what the item is truly worth? What if I do, but it doesn't change my stance on how much it's worth to me on a personal level(Such as the myriad of cosmetics), but I know others value it higher so I could profit?

Criminal would imply it's against the rules, which it isn't. So that argument goes out the window; wrongful is something, using your definition methods, that is not legal(Merchants are legal), just or fair. The last two are relatively close, so let's address that. 'Fair' or 'just' would imply that you received what you bargained for; in the case of merchants, unless they pull the old "MapleStory" scam or do a quick switch scam, then you got exactly what you wanted; your ignorance on prices is NOT the responsibility of another player(Nor has it ever been). Don't expect to be babied by others, and yet be treated like an adult when it comes to your worth.

Merchants do not scam. Trying to argue that they do when they offer sub par prices is folly; scams are acts which are illegal or against the rules in nature, and merchants don't do this when they offer to pay you 50% of an item's worth. Moreover, nobody is forcing you into making that trade, so if you are even reasonably enlightened on the matter, you don't need to make such a trade; scams generally involve false pretenses and outright lies. With a merchant, you receive the payment that you were promised. It is not a scam.

Scams do not happen because someone was paid a very low price in comparison to what an item is worth. To try and argue that point, you need to assume that every item has a heavily defined, standard pricing system that does not change over small periods of time and remains relatively stable. That does not exist in this economy, because if I want to I can sell my items for 10b despite them not even being worth 1b; likewise, I can sell them for 10m if I wanted to. The prices are determined [i]by the two players within a trade[/i], and saying they should abide to outside factors of prices in order to respect some grand moral scheme and favor the willfully ignorant is, as I stated before, expecting to be babied by others, but wanting the rewards of an adult without the effort and responsibility it has on your own actions.

@tricks122:

Google Scam definition. Then google swind1e synonym as used in the verb. Then google synonym fraud (stated in noun: fraudulent action).

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain" describes exactly what merchants do so enlighten me on what this has to do with a free market economy because you're statement that scams can't happen in a free market economy is at the height of folly.

@dr4g0ns1ay3r: They know more in the sense that they have plenty of more time to know the game better than the funded. I say this because the funded usually skip corners and get straight to the source, ex: tele rock, merching, quests are obsolete. The unfunded do everything they can and don't cut corners like we do, so in overall getting more field experience of the game.
So to the point of $$$, if they (unfunded) started investing like we did, they too would start cutting corners. But that's just my own point of view, I say this because I started cutting corners when I started inve$ting, leaving me out of touch with the in-game quests (the ones that matter) and traveling short-cuts.

I respect players who have an advanced knowledge of the game - in particular the intricacies of the Free Market and the wider economy as a whole (for me personally since all I do is merch). In addition, players who have acquired their wealth legitimately (via merching preferably with minimal NX) and are nice people too. I respect the time and effort, the dedication and the labour that's gone on behind the scenes to take that player to their current position. I've been around for a long, long time and for my earlier years (when I actually trained) I was frustrated with my terrible damage and lack of funding. I could not and did not really intend to purchase (if it was available) to buy plenty of NX for the easy route out. That's when I turned to merching to try and alleviate my woes - the pursuit of wealth is the only thing that has interested me for many of my later years since I lost all interest in training shortly after - time is money. The game's economy fascinates me; I feel like the economy really is quite complex - for a 2D side-scrolling game in particular. The Free Market's name really is quite fitting because there is virtually no intervention by the government/state (which would be the equivalent of Nexon in this case). No price floors or price ceilings are set, no real subsidies or anything. There is trade tax (for both player-to-player trading and transactions through stores) but it's about as good as anyone can hope for market-wise in this game. For the most part, players are subject to the simple forces of supply and demand. We can price items as high and as low as we want.

Personally, I treat it as a simple case of treat others how you wanted to be treated. I do not scam, and I do not abuse other players simply because I do not want to experience such treatment in return. I have acquired all my assets over a long period of time legitimately through plenty of patience through a constant refinement of what I think merching to be - some luck along the road never hurts either. My appearance appears to be quite similar to a highly questionable player (once my picture updates) who also plays in my server - we're completely different people.

If I meet someone who appears to be both genuinely well-intentioned and lacking in resources, I am very happy to donate some mesos (last donation was 75 million and free SW glasses to a very nice but broke player I met a week ago I think) and/or items to assist them. Being around for so long (since a long time before Big Bang update occurred), and in my opinion, living in the Free Market for so long has really enabled me to see the highs and lows of MS over the years - but that's just my own opinion. I can really relate to their difficulties before I finally achieved my own goals through plenty of patience and perseverance.

This also feels really weird to write since I'm one of those annoying people who just posts unhelpful comments in most threads, but this thread is something I am genuinely interested in and have enjoyed reading the responses of other players. This is a short and probably poorly structured response regarding my own opinion - again, I focus heavily on merching/merchers because that is personally what I do. It's different for other players.

ps p2w? probably more like p2l now lol

In my opinion respect begets respect. You could work all you want to make mesos and self fund but if you're a complete jerk towards other players for whatever reason then I don't respect you.

Ex. Someone who farmed / grinded for their gear mocking someone who bought their gear with NX implying it's somehow less meaningful.
Ex. Someone who bought their gear doing the same to someone who farmed / grinded.
Ex. Someone funded making fun of someone unfunded / new to the game.
Ex. The funded players who go around asking literally everybody else in the server that's funded how much main stat they have so that they might be able to gloat about how they have more.

You get the idea.

There's nothing to "win", so how can you pay to win anything?

Funding does not replace fun.

The older and more mature you get, the more you realize how little you care about how others play the game as long as it doesn't affect you. I think the issue is the player base, and the vocal minority. The younger generation is likely to be more immature and likely to engage in arguments on basil or in game over. Smega wars, showing off items,ksing, having an elitist mentality etc. I find myself so distant from that kind of drama. There are a handful of people who don't bother engaging in those things. Those are the ones I respect. I could careless if they spent thousands or didn't spend a single penny. I am apathetic towards their wealth. For example, some people here straight up hate that crylenol guy. I read some of his post and sees how much he spends etc. Dude is harmless and people want his head.

[quote=duriel123]In my mind, compassion and courtesy earn respect for the person sitting on the other side of the screen, wealth and knowledge earn respect for the player sitting in the game.

(By the way I appreciate the responses, some of the responses were quite interesting.)[/quote]

That's unfortunately somewhat flawed. A lot of good 'merchant' tactics in MMO's tend to advantage those who are already rich or have connections(Such as bulk buying of items, forming monopolies, etc), others favor those with money, and others favor ripping off others(Not to be confused with scamming). I'd actually argue that the hardest working players are those who accomplish secondary goals harder than getting rich, such as maxing Empathy or Insight(And Willpower before Gollux); there are fewer, if any, shortcuts here, and the work can't be circumvented. It's also always a level playing field(With the exception of, perhaps, Insight due to Magnifying Glasses being removed).

Mesos are long and boring to earn. They also, unfortunately, generally involve ripping someone off(Fact of the matter is, for merchants to exist and profit, someone has to be ripped off or sell cheaply somewhere along the line); an example I'll give is the old Dragon Strike 20/30 monopoly a long time ago. They dropped from very few mobs, but Buccaneers were nearly non-existent; this meant the book SHOULD be cheap by all laws of supply and demand, since it had similar supply to other class books, the same requirement of those classes(As in, it was their main mobbing skill) and those classes had higher numbers. So it should be cheaper, right?

Wrong. A bunch of 'merchants' decided to buy up the supply and hold a monopoly at 250m/each(Compared to the previous 10m~30m price). It happened suddenly, without warning, and took zero effort on their part; they didn't have "knowledge" and their "wealth" essentially allowed them to be lazy and follow a cookie-cutter build I see in many MMO's(Buy rare supply of item that players need to the point of being sole supplier, hike up prices, profit). I won't give someone respect simply because their opportunities(Which almost anyone could do) have a requirement that many players don't have; it's like saying I should respect 'x' billionaire because he's a success and makes more money than me, yet he's some kid riding on the coat-tails of rich parents. The argument doesn't make any sense, because the playing field isn't even from the start, and yet the standards we'd be held to are equal.

The means in which players attain wealth can be respected, but the simple act of being wealthy should not. A player who buys NX, uses it to get Mesos somehow, then holds monopolies like the one I described has done nothing intelligent or diligent; they simply had the means to abuse an easy system, and abused it for profit(Similar to anyone who got rich from, say, the massive Gach glitch recently). Many players also have similar knowledge to merchants; if I bothered to, I could probably be a successful one, as could most people. It's generally the aspect of morals or enjoyment that stop people(I hate dealing with 101 idiots who have the logic of "Your item is cheaper than mine because it's yours" and "My item is more expensive than yours because it's mine&quot, and in other cases it's also time or inherent lack of skill in that domain(Although they could have good control for their character, which is much harder to achieve than being a merchant, since the latter essentially follows a plan with little skill).

In any case... saying that wealth should be related to respect, even in some form, doesn't seem correct, to me, in the real world or an online world. The actions which lead to a person being wealthy? In some cases, maybe; in others, not really. It depends on so many variables, and too often than not, those who are rich tend to be rich because they were rich first or were rich at a 'good' time; this isn't even considering the practice of merchants(Which involves the direct sale of goods at a loss to their sellers and a gain to them) or how opportunity functions(In many cases, when new updates come out the rich obtain disproportional amounts of profit compared to other players, since most profitable content is locked behind some form of overall wealth requirement in terms of gear).

How I see it is that attaining wealth is goal that is quite common amongst players. Those who have the knowledge and diligence to realize their goals are worthy of respect, I personally would not go as far to say that wealth is utterly unrelated to respect. In my mind, compassion and courtesy earn respect for the person sitting on the other side of the screen, wealth and knowledge earn respect for the player sitting in the game.

(By the way I appreciate the responses, some of the responses were quite interesting.)

A wealthy person is just a poor person with money.

[quote=singaporean]The merch will try and get it from you for 150 in an attempt to rip you off despite you selling it below market value. That's scamming.[/quote]

Despite the fact that I hate merchants(Or at least the process merchants use) in every game, saying that 'scams' happen in a free market economy is dumb, particularly in the example you listed. Assuming that items have set, precisely defined values and inherently inflexible worth is just... well, silly. Cry 'scam' all you want, but it's not within the definition of a scam, even if it is a practice that often has to be dishonest(And only if you're an idiot that believes everything someone tells you, when they would profit from your ignorance: literally); however, by the logic you set forth...there would be very few legitimate interactions, in real life or in Maple, based on said logic. But hey... nobody's stopping you from thinking that way, I just think that your logic doesn't hold up.

As for me(And moving away from my address to you, @signaporean), I respect people for who they are. I can disagree with someone on some aspects and still respect them; to attach respect to a singular quality, or lack thereof, seems strange to me, as people are complex individuals and it's unlikely I can respect everything about someone. Whether someone spends money or not on the game is irrelevant to me, because it doesn't change their actual person in any way; all that changes is their 'wealth' and to hate, or like, someone solely because of that quality, with it being a 'make or break' decision, is silly to me.

Many of the players I respect the most aren't funded. A few others are. I can respect them to similar degrees without forming my basis on their mesos, NX, money spent on the game, etc. Although, I play for fun, so perhaps I'm not the best person to speak on that matter, since many players do play for damage. But hey, your first clue with why I play would be the fact that I play a Buccaneer; so me playing for fun should be obvious enough.

What makes a good player is if they can legit do the quick research the game needs and if they don't swap classes every 3 days. I respect anyone who sticks to their class and are in it for good. That's it. Sometimes i'm guilty of failing to do research but as long as you don't screw up 24/7 then you're fine.

Anyone else gets zero respect from me. Also, if you're a merch or belong to any fm guild, you get zero respect from me. Sure, I may be your friend or I may like you but I don't respect what you represent and thus zero respect. "Merch" in effect means scammers when it comes to maple. There's an item selling for 500m and you tried to sell cheap and quick at 400? The merch will try and get it from you for 150 in an attempt to rip you off despite you selling it below market value. That's scamming.

It's a video game so it's hard to take it seriously. I personally am one of those over funded individuals that actually makes an effort to give away my boss loots and anything I make to friends at this point because I'd rather help someone than sink all of the extra funds into pointless stuff like perma nx. I like helping others and it makes me feel good on the inside knowing I'm making some random strangers day <3

I do not believe wealth should be associated with respect. Wealth and position are two things I am apathetic about.
I respect people that are hard working and honest.

[quote=genostigma]I respect the Mapler that hardly has any NX cover on and knows all the short cuts in the game. Ex: Quest, traveling faster etc.. They know more because they don't spend $$$; I've been playing this game for years and don't know as much as them. So, being funded (wealth) doesn't necessarily translate to automatic respect if you don't know much imo.[/quote]

"they know more b/c they don't spend $$$." that's an odd statement since most of my buddies spent their hard earn mesos on nx items more than getting funded. They haven't spent a dime yet they have tons of nx items. They know more questline and merching techniques than me.

[quote=repentant]The players I respect are the ones who are knowledgeable. Those players also happen to be super funded and rich with NX, but their wealth isn't why I respect them. These players know their way around the game and actively help others by answering questions and spreading knowledge. I respect anyone who makes a positive impact on the community.[/quote]

I like this answer.

@starryskyxp thanks for the kind words

@pinklulu, exactly

For me "wealth" is a non factor when it comes to respect somebody in this game. The factors are pretty much the same as the ones I have irl:

1) Kindness
2) Humbleness
3) Politeness
4) Empathy

I know unbearable stuck up idiots 2m-2m dojo 1 second and lvl 10 noob killing hene shrooms, same goes the other way around.
I will never understand people who get "power drunk" when they have reached obscene damage through money or whatever means. We all once started as a lvl 1 unfunded no nx no meso player.

Wealth has nothing to do with anything. Just look at Donald Trump.

I believe that credit is due where someone [b]goes out of their way[/b] to help someone. From what I saw on the forums when I was still active, it was @Traitor taking his time to help the returning maplers. Aside from that, there comes a saying in mind:

[i]"She gave a very small offering, perhaps, but I've known many, many people -- much better off than the widow -- who put in $1 when the plate is passed and feel good about themselves. But for the widow, this $1.50 is all she has.[/i]

[i][b]"'I tell you the truth,' he said, 'this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.'" (21:3-4) This $1.50 represents buying her next meal. She is destitute, probably living off the charity of her neighbors. She has just a tiny bit in her possession, but she wants to give it. No matter that she won't have food for the evening meal. She wants to give it.[/i][/b]

[i]People are watching the rich ostentatiously depositing their large offerings. But no one marks the poverty-stricken widow, who reached into her rags to withdraw these two thin copper coins and deposit them into the collection box. No one see the look of joy on her face as she gives to her Lord the little she has. No one sees. No one notices.[/i]

[i]But God notices. God's Son notices. And he says to his disciples -- "Did you see that?" They look over where he is pointing. All they see is a tired old widow shuffling away from the collection box.[/i]

[i]"She gave more than all of those rich people put together," Jesus tells them, and they look at him in astonishment. $1.50 vs. thousands of dollars? They don't say it, but they must think that Jesus is seriously mistaken. Daft, maybe.[/i]

[i]But he continues. "All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on." Jesus is thinking about proportional giving."[/i]

[quote=traitor]tbh, I respect the struggle and journey of people who just play the game. others merely do things that seem to be a chore and are killing themselves doing so to get that "respect" they want but can't even be a half-decent human being.[/quote]
I like this answer, really puts it in perspective that we are in the end playing a game.

depending on how you see it some might say im rich since im end game funded but that doesn't mean I didn't work my ass off to get there and most of it didn't involve money. so I guess there are people who can be both too

The players I respect are the ones who are knowledgeable. Those players also happen to be super funded and rich with NX, but their wealth isn't why I respect them. These players know their way around the game and actively help others by answering questions and spreading knowledge. I respect anyone who makes a positive impact on the community.

^ Judging folk based on NX covers is pretty harsh and I sure hope you don't cancel out every NX'd player for that.

Often times, it's the people who talk to other players about casual topics that understand that respect comes from personality rather than funds. The players who are generally absorbed into the game itself are the kind that look to the 'successful' players as gods.
It isn't even just funds that people look up to, appearance takes place in it as well. For example, due to my character's apparent cuteness, I've met people who are just tenderly nice to me even when I had crumb range. There are even some people who prefer talking to my Zero rather than say my Kanna mule even if it's me behind the screen.
This behavior applies to real life as well and even there, we don't know why we mystify those above us.
All in all, effort or monetary wealth doesn't often earn a person respect. It may earn them surface respect like "Good job!" Type of respect rather than "I'm going to do something amazing for you" type of respect (servitude?).

Since we're talking about people here, it applies and it doesn't apply.

I respect the Mapler that hardly has any NX cover on and knows all the short cuts in the game. Ex: Quest, traveling faster etc.. They know more because they don't spend $$$; I've been playing this game for years and don't know as much as them. So, being funded (wealth) doesn't necessarily translate to automatic respect if you don't know much imo.

tbh, I respect the struggle and journey of people who just play the game. others merely do things that seem to be a chore and are killing themselves doing so to get that "respect" they want but can't even be a half-decent human being.

[quote=duriel123]Perhaps my poll choices could have been clear, my bad there.
I was thinking of respect as an additive quantity, in those options I didn't mean that being wealthy automatically establishes one as a respected individual, but its more like +10 respect points(lol).[/quote]

I think you are talking about like ability, you like someone more because they know, are going or have went through the same struggle you did without throwing money at the game.

[quote=lycanthropods]I can agree with 3 of the 4 choices, but I mainly agree with wealth has no affect on who is worthy of respect. I think people are looking at it entirely wrong if they think having money equals respect.[/quote]
Perhaps my poll choices could have been clear, my bad there.
I was thinking of respect as an additive quantity, in those options I didn't mean that being wealthy automatically establishes one as a respected individual, but its more like +10 respect points(lol).

i respect anyone who doesn't make an ass of themselves. whether or not they are funded/wealthy/going with or against the p2w style is irrelevant

[quote=lycanthropods]I can agree with 3 of the 4 choices, but I mainly agree with wealth has no affect on who is worthy of respect. I think people are looking at it entirely wrong if they think having money equals respect.[/quote]

Agreed,

Although there are people who are "respected" because of their wealth. There are so many people who suck up to wealthy players just for cookie crumbs or in hopes of a smega.

[quote=jetlagjag]I don't have respect for either type UNLESS they themselves are respectful to other players. The types who constantly belittle others because they're not as strong really sickens me. It seems more and more of them are surfacing every day...

There are a handful of "wealthy" players who are actually not assholes. They're the ones I respect and give just compliments to.[/quote]

This. Even though you spend on the game, it does not make someone wealthy. People make poor choices with money all the time. If you're not a respectable human-being, how do you expect to be respected in return?

I can agree with 3 of the 4 choices, but I mainly agree with wealth has no affect on who is worthy of respect. I think people are looking at it entirely wrong if they think having money equals respect.

I don't have respect for either type UNLESS they themselves are respectful to other players. The types who constantly belittle others because they're not as strong really sickens me. It seems more and more of them are surfacing every day...

There are a handful of "wealthy" players who are actually not assholes. They're the ones I respect and give just compliments to.

I give credit where credit is due.

In my own personal opinion, it doesn't matter if you spend money on this game or not. It's honestly your own decision and it doesn't affect others. The ones who I do have an issue with are the people who cheat and scam. They deserve no respect at all. If you play by the rules and are legit, then doesn't matter if you spend money in my books.

Can i vote for 2 and 3?